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Cesare 08-03-2006 02:17 AM

Foreign babies?
5 Attachment(s)
Non U.S. Custom Baby Carbines of the AR-Family. Can you say where from?

Cesare 08-03-2006 06:01 AM

Maybe this is to hard

NPS Guy 08-03-2006 06:42 AM

Don't know a whole lot about poodle punchers :o

PT-The Italian Commie 08-03-2006 09:40 AM

The first IS American (M2 Corp. M16X, the first link says "It's a fake gun" but that's false, TJ found this out later to be a real gun but didn't corrected it!). The last one is American too, a DPMS/Panther Arms "Kitty Kat" shorty carbine.

Cesare 08-03-2006 01:55 PM

Hmm, no
5 Attachment(s)
I think your info is wrong, but i also think i might just understood why even though unconfirmed yet.

If your M16X ( truly is what it claims then it cant be a Canadian DIEMACO PDW. Even though the measurements seems right; The Diemaco Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) is even more compact having an overall length of 20.7 inches with stock fully retracted. It has a 5.7-inch barrel and the receiver extension has been shortened by 1.65 inches. But i really doubt it is a M2, i think the picture below however which almost looks identical to the one on top, really is a M2. But if you look closely you can see they're not the same, in fact not nearly a single detail is exact. The one on top have several distinguishing features; it is a flattop, has a removable carryhandle with modern sight, fat-butt and rather large sling-loop.

Look & read here:

I think the reason for all this is that they were all evaluated for the PDW-project and therefor might have bought patents, borrowed ideas, cooperated or simply just plagiarized. this is sitill unknown to me. Read here;

The Canadian military initiates a PDW requirement to replace the Inglis No. 2 Mk. 1* pistol (WW2-era license-production FN GP35) and the Diemaco C8 carbine. Projected quantities have ranged up to 10,000 units. Over the years, the CF PDW candidates have included 5.56x45mm entries such as Military Manufacturing (M2) Corp.'s M16X and M16C (4" and 6" barrels respectively), and Diemaco's CQB (a Colt Commando variant) and PDW (an even shorter Commando variant). The specialty caliber PDWs such as FN's P90 and HK's MP7 have also been considered.


Here is another pic of the PDW; sorry
I have a thumb here left on google image search since the page is gone (originally maybe someone has it? if you try to look at the one hidden behind you can see that it is the same gun. All the others are diffrent M2 (or combined) subguns. The last pic is, what i belive, where your picture originally came from, but here you can read on the receiver.

The Pics are as follows;
#1 Diemaco-PDW #2 M2-M16C 3# M2-M16SP II 4# M2-XM23A1 5# M2-M16X

Cesare 08-03-2006 02:46 PM

And no...
You are right that it sure looks like a Kitty-Kat no doubt they look the same, understandable, but show a little faith....;)

Cesare 08-03-2006 02:54 PM

The right answers:
Country Canada
Manufactured by: Diemaco
Model: PDW
Caliber: 5,56N
Rate of fire: 1140rpm

Country Czech
Made by: strelecky servis Strílení
AR15 Target Classic Mini
Caliber: 9mm Magazine: x25
Rate of fire: semiauto

Country Germany
Made by: P.T. Custom
Model: .223Rem
Rate of fire: Semiauto

Country Philippines
Ferfrans ( USA but made for philipine commandos so i think it counts as non US)
Caliber: 5,56N
Magazine: x30
Rate of fire: 450-500rpm

#5 The Kitty-Kat is actually a:
Country UK
Manufactured by: Sabre Defense Ind.
Model: XR15 Compact Retractable
Magazine: x10-20 or STANAG
Barrel length: 19cm or 7,5''

Overall length: 60.5 - 70,5cm with stock retracted is 57cm
Weight approx.. 2.7 kg
Caliber: 223 rem also in 9x19mmP
cost is about 1790.00Euro

PT-The Italian Commie 08-03-2006 03:03 PM

Wrong again!

Originally Posted by Cesare
The Pics are as follows;
#1 Diemaco-PDW #2 M2-M16C 3# M2-M16SP II 4# M2-XM23A1 5# M2-M16X

The weapon you call M2-XM23A1 is an XM-231/A1 "Commando" pistol made by GUNSMOKE ENTERPRISES, Inc.

As for the DIEMACO PDW, see the website of DIEMACO (now "Colt Canada Corporation") and you will see that there is NO such thing in production: the DIEMACO PDW was a prototype made to compete as a Canadian Armed Forces' PDW in standard rifle caliber .5'56x45mm, but now the smaller weapon made by DIEMACO/Colt Canada is the CQB CARBINE, close relative of the US-made Colt "Commando".

Believe me when I say that the first picture is an M2 M16-X, equipped with an integrally-sound suppressed upper with removable carrying handle; actually, MILITARY MANUFACTURING CORPORATION (M2 Corp) offer their too-shorty M16-style PDWs mainly under the form of upper receivers that can be mounted on any AR-15/M-16/M-4 lower.
The DIEMACO PDW was a now-defunct prototype concept of 2 years ago, of which you can find a small picture (the only one existing, I think) right down here.

As final note, I have to point out that SDI - SABRE DEFENCE INDUSTRIES, LLC is NOT a British company but only has international representance offices in the UK, like many others; in fact, the gun laws in the UK are so stringent that it would be very hard for them to install manufacturing capabilities for military-style weapons in the UK if them would be later destinated to the civilian public. SABRE DEFENCE is an AMERICAN company, as you can see from THEIR WEBSITE.

Cesare 08-03-2006 05:11 PM

I am not sure about the XM23A1 (i said M2 (or combined) subguns) with combined i meant that it might be a M2upper or whatever just wanted to find some extra pics to show you the diffrence between the M2 and the Diemaco, couldnt find the XM23A1 in your link but if you are sure, then i give you right since im not. Then im sorry and

Never said it was in production... And yes you are right...
Probably your picture is from here:

I believe that the picture it is a very early prototype Diemaco-PDW and not the later as you see published at Canadian American Strategic Review CASR's homepage, which IS a spitting image of the picture you call a M2.

Regarding Sabre this particular one is as i have understood it manufactured in England before production were moved to the US? Because i thought they started out as a british firm and then moved to the US. I never said they weren't american just that this one werent (the gun on the pic). i agree that they now are a american company. Sabre Defence has been supplying M16s to the European market for some time. US production has gone primarily to Coalition forces. They have been major suppliers of Ma Deuce barrels and related gear. Just lately getting into the domestic US AR market. I think maybe they want to give the american public the impression of being an all-through american company to sell to the red-white-and-blue. Here is an excerpt from: The Small Arms Review - Vol. 8 No. 5 - February, 2005

SAR readers should know Sabre Defense as the UK group that also bought out the old Ramo Manufacturing fifty cali-ber plant. Sabre is in full production of the M2 HB and QuickChange Barrel fifty caliber machine guns, as well as manysuppressors and their own high quality M16A2/ M4 variants.They are a US Government Prime Contractor on theseprojects, and have full production of high quality fifty caliberbarrels. They are presently working on fifty caliber suppres-sor designs.

Sabre Defense Industries
450 Allied DriveNashville,
TN 37211

Final note
All this set aside if i should look at where i got the pic from, they never say it is a Diemaco and the site at CASR has vanished, so it seems i will continue to have a hard time convincing you... But i am quite convinced youre wrong, where did you find the pic to begin with? And you must agree to that they are very diffrent (not the models) even if they would have been mfg. by M2 which they werent.

Cesare 08-03-2006 06:18 PM

Lets put one thing to rest first...
1 Attachment(s)

Here is a pic of the other side revealing the "SDI Ltd." old markings from Sabre Defense Industries.

And finally in this catalog you can read the following statement:
The good news is that SABRE is now leveraging that same high quality, high performance capability to produce the XR15 5.56mm semi-auto rifle in the USA. For years SABRE has been better known in Europe rather than
the US for their commercial products. Originally based in England, SABRE has been manufacturing the XR15 for over 10 years and is the most popular M16 derivative in Europe. SABRE is now merging the UK Commercial
XR15 Manufacturing experience with the high tech SABRE US Manufacturing and Machining capabilities to provide one of the finest weapons in the world !!

Everybody makes misstakes!:)

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