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  #1  
Old 09-09-2006
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Red face Hey PT

I molested one of your countrymen today.full auto was somewhat dissapointing compared to the superior M-14 but hey, at least it worked.
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Old 09-10-2006
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Talking Hehehe...

BERETTA BM59-Mk3 (or "Ital-Pesante", "HEAVY", as we called). It is the least known and spread weapon of the series, Adopted by Italy in very VERY little quantities, but vastly sold to Nigeria and turned into the main long weapon for their army for some time (odd, they made a HEAVY AUTOMATIC RIFLE the standard issue weapon).

As for the M-14 being "superior", I wouldn't tell so. Many think that the Beretta BM-59 is an M14-knockoff. It isn't. While the Americans wasted years and millions of valuable US$ for trials and R&D to obtain the M-14, a rifle that was already "born old", engineer DOMENICO SALZA at Beretta took about six months to shorten an M1 Garand, fit it with a selective-fire bolt/trigger group and a .7'62x51mm removable magazine and make the BM-59. Lighter and cheaper than the M-14, easier and faster to produce and technically more reliable.
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Old 09-10-2006
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And to everyone who's talked about the M14's kick at full auto...


Tell them to fire one of these and they'll never complain again.
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Old 09-10-2006
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The BM-59 is WAY MUCH MORE CONTROLLABLE in full-autofire than the M-14. The main difference within the M-14 and the BM-59 is that the M-14 is a BATTLE RIFLE; it has been conceived with the "old" idea of war in mind: troopers to get down targets by firing long-range, high-accuracy, high-punch shots. The same concept of war that asks a rifleman platoon to stop advancing enemies with a salvo even on distances over 800 metres; and the same concept of war that asks full-autofire, if it is available, to be used only on support role, and by specialized personnel (the same M-14, while able of full-automatic fire, was conceived to be used in such way only by a soldier specifically trained to it, issued with a bipod and fixing the weapon on the ground).
The BM-59 is instead an ASSAULT RIFLE. It is lighter, smaller, and able of full-autofire to provide the individual infantryman to deliver fully-automatic fire on medium distances against enemies, still retaning high mobility. As a concept, it is much more akin to the AK-47 or the HK-G3 than to, so to say, the M-14 or the FAL-L1A1; and the fact that it uses the .7'62x51mm-NATO cartridge, which is not EXACTLY known to be the best in full-autofire controllability on an individual weapon, is just due to the fact that Italy, being part of NATO, had to adopt the .7'62x51mm and not a smaller-caliber cartridge. But the BM-59 is more an assault rifle than a battle rifle. A proof of it is that the more widespread BM-59 version was not the "Mk-1" (standard stock version), but the "Mk-2", the one called in Italy "Ital-TA". This version has a side-folding stock, a pistol grip, and the muzzle-mounted rifle grenade launcher can be unscrewed and removed from the barrel. Originally conceived only for parajumpers, airborne and alpine troops, this version has lately spread further between the Italian troops, especially within those sent abroad for International peace-keeping missions (like with the UN in what was then Zaire, in the 1960s, or in the first Lebanon mission in the early 1980s), because it retained the accuracy, the firepower, and the relative full-auto controllability of the full-stock version, yet resulting smaller, more maneuverable, and lighter.

Under the nowadays concept of basic infantry individual combat long weapon, the BM-59 is still superior in many ways to the M-14; sure, the M-14 has longer range and accuracy. But this makes the M-14 just an excellent platoon marksman rifle, rather than an assault rifle suitable for general use. Think about how fast it has been replaced in service; personally, I consider it just a "parenthesis" between the concept of military issue rifle related to the "old" concept of war (represented by the M1 Garand) and the concept of military issue rifle related to the "modern" concept of war (represented by the M-16). The M-14 has the defect to be closer to the "old" concept than to the "modern" one. And its deficiences all ebrupted violently during its deployment in Vietnam, in comparaison with the lower-power and lower-range, but much more practical, enemy AK-47 and even SKS rifles.
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Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 09-10-2006 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 09-10-2006
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THe M14 is heavy, and fires a round the produces heavy impulse, making recoil difficult.

The BM59 is light, but fires a round that produces the exact same impulse, thus its recoil must be even worse.

You cannot violate the laws of physics PT.

F=ma
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Old 09-10-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
You cannot violate the laws of physics PT.

I am just refering what I know from personal experiences of people (military personnel and workers of BERETTA plant) who had the occasion to fire them both.
Also, the BM-59 has a lower ROF than the M-14. Even though both "officially" have a rate of fire of about 700-750 RPM, the "practical" ROF for the BM-59 can result of even 100 RPM less than that.
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Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 09-10-2006 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 09-10-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
I am just refering what I know from personal experiences of people (military personnel and workers of BERETTA plant) who had the occasion to fire them both. Also, the BM-59 has a lower ROF than the M-14.

Iím just making the point that the recoil on the BM-59 must be worseÖ How controllable it is in full auto, based on rate of fire and a few other factors, would be a different matter.
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Old 09-10-2006
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Default Roger that.

I never fired personally a BM-59, since all full-automatic/selective-fire weapons are forbidden for civilians in Italy and I was discarded for the military draft in 2003 because of my myopia; and even if I had done the draft, I would must probably had a chance to fire the BM-59 only in semi-auto, since I have been told by career military personnel that I know that the BM-59 is kept in reserve stock and used very little for recruits training, the .5'56mm 70/90 Beretta system weapons being the mostly practiced weapon since -it- now is the standard rifle for the Italian military.
About the BM-59 Vs. M-14 automatic fire controllability, all I have been told is that users found it better than the M-14; this does not means that the BM-59 is any good in FA anyway...
Besides, probably the best controllable .7'62x51mm rifles ever made are the HK-G3 and the FN FAL.
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"It is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself, when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law." -- Malcolm X

"We (atheists) act in good conscience because we believe in moral principles, not because we expect a reward in Heaven." -- Margherita Hack

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  #9  
Old 09-10-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
Besides, probably the best controllable .7'62x51mm rifles ever made are the HK-G3 and the FN FAL.
Mmmmh, what about the AR-10 ?
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  #10  
Old 09-10-2006
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Default The AR-10

You can control it just fine. Right up until the barrel explodes.


No, this weapon is never going to live that one down.
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