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  #1  
Old 07-06-2007
Zoran Zoran is offline
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Thumbs down Bad news for Bravo 5 !

From many companies in the last year there was one which was very interested in Bravo 5 mehanism.I went to Italy to present this mechanism and the advantages it has compared to present models.
But it seems that Bravo 5 is not suitable for them.I am very disappointed but I do not have the intention of giving up.
Still it remains unclear why a mehanism like does not go in to the serial production?
Best regards,
Zoran Bezanovic
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  #2  
Old 07-06-2007
PT-The Italian Commie's Avatar
PT-The Italian Commie PT-The Italian Commie is offline
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Unhappy I am sincerely saddened about that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoran
Still it remains unclear why a mehanism like does not go in to the serial production?

I have tried to explain you the reason why in many ways. Such a mechanism is overly complicated and thus expensive to produce, not to mention that it poses several problems to the user. Putting many different thingys on a firearm for the user to trick with can be dangerous, especially if the user has a low preparation (like most people who carry a gun for personal defense), or if he works in a field that requires prompt operational readyness. That's the reason why the Glock is so popular: all you have to do is to chamber a round and pull the trigger. No safeties, no strange features to thinker upon.

No matter how many advantages in comparaison with current models the BRAVO 5 can provide: if the price to pay for such advantages is an odd and unappealing design, an overly-complicated working system, increased difficulty and cost of manufacture, and a low market expectance, then the advantages are quickly surclassed by the drawbacks. That's what happened to some of the pistols which I think to be between the best ever made (HK P9S and VP-70), and what could have happened with the Glocks, due to their odd design; fact is that the only disadvantage of the Glocks is nothing but the external appearance itself, and nothing else: the Glock is a perfect gun for many uses, it is light, simple and cheap to manufacture, easy to use: hence why it conquered the market.

And, frankly, I have to say: if what you ahve shown up to now is what should the BRAVO 5 look like in its definitive configuration, well, let me tell you, that such a design will NEVER appeal the market. It's simply doesn't complies with the canons of fashion that appeal the general public nowadays.
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Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 07-06-2007 at 02:23 AM.
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  #3  
Old 07-09-2007
Zoran Zoran is offline
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Default Re: Bad news for Bravo 5 !

Dear fire arms lovers,I am kindly asking you to answer following questions:
1.What is safer as a mehanism:Revolver or a Pistol?
2.Is it better to have a Revolver with 6 cartridges or with 15,17 cartridges?
3.Would you personaly feel safer if you had a gun which could never ever jam?
4.Why are Revolvers still made?
Regards,
Zoran
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  #4  
Old 07-09-2007
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PT-The Italian Commie PT-The Italian Commie is offline
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Default Re: Bad news for Bravo 5 !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoran
1.What is safer as a mehanism:Revolver or a Pistol?

With current techniques, I'd say both. It's a common opinion, thinking that revolvers are super-sidearms that never jam and can never have problems. Is as common as wrong. If there's one sensible, delicate gun design, that's the revolver. Even a little breakage in the cylinder revolving system, in the spring system, or even a scratch in the hammer is enough to put it out of combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoran
2.Is it better to have a Revolver with 6 cartridges or with 15,17 cartridges?

Hi-Cap revolvers aren't new in "innovations" of firearm history. See the Dardick system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoran
3.Would you personaly feel safer if you had a gun which could never ever jam?

Of course I would. But that's not the case of a revolver. It's wrong to think that a revolver can never jam or malfunction. And, speaking of the BRAVO-5, saying that it would "never jam" it's a bit excessive. There's NOTHING that can "never jam". Don't forget Murphy's Law. And by the way: a gun that "never jams" is mostly a simple gun. Think about the VP-70 pistol: only 7 mobile parts overall. Now, the BRAVO-5: the single-handed cycling capability adds complicatedness in the gun, and a gun that's complicated is much likely to malfunction for something. Too many parts to look and care at. An average user has not the preparedness to operate such a deep maintenance in a gun. Not to mention PROFESSIONAL users (who often are even less expert in guns than civilian shooters, as they only see their gun as a "working instrument" or an encumbrance): even those who have the capacities to take care of such a gun, don't have the TIME. In the stressing, chaotic life of a "Professional" (soldier, cop), when you draw out a gun you don't have to be worried that it might not work because you haven't oiled some little hidden part of the particular mechanism that makes it cycle single-handedly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoran
4.Why are Revolvers still made?

1 - Because certain Countries don't allow private ownership of semi-automatic pistols, or put severe restrictions to them.
2 - Because certain Countries don't allow private Security use of guns other than revolvers.
3 - Because revolvers usually have an higher caliber than an average semi-automatic.
4 - Because the revolver is the perfect gun for an unprepared civilian, who doesn't has to care about safeties, slide, round chambering, magazine, and all the rest: just aim it and pull the trigger.

This said, the revolver has also some major drawbacks: low ammunition capacity; only Single-Action (which causes the user to have to cock the hammer manually after each shot) or only Double Action (which causes a long, heavy trigger pull that many shooters aren't able to deliver: think about a woman who carries a gun in her purse to protect herself from rapists); and, as I said, the common and wrong opinion that a revolver is not a gun design as complicated and delicate as a semi-automatic pistol. It -IS-. Sometimes even more than a semi-auto.
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"It is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself, when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law." -- Malcolm X

"We (atheists) act in good conscience because we believe in moral principles, not because we expect a reward in Heaven." -- Margherita Hack

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  #5  
Old 07-09-2007
Mk23 Mk23 is offline
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Default You know, to tell the truth...

I would've wanted a Bravo 5.




But I advise nobody to go on my opinion on this.


There hasn't been a firearm made on Earth that I don't want.
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  #6  
Old 07-14-2007
Zoran Zoran is offline
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Default Re: Bad news for Bravo 5 !

My invention is continuing the evolution in hand fire arms.As you know first there was one cartridges pistil,revolver and than automatic pistol.
It is completely logical to me that some time a new mechanism will develop which will make the functions of a revolver and a pistol together in the most practical and useful meaning.It is very important that it can be used in automatic rifles!
It is normal that Mr.Dardick has done this but he had to put every bullet in special cartridges(sabot) and as I recall it does not have the magazine but only 8 cartridges!Also it can not have the suppressor.
Did you see how Bravo 5 will look in the serial production?
I do not agree that the mehanism is complicated since it offers more than a standard weapon!
Regards,
Zoran
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  #7  
Old 07-14-2007
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Question Re: Bad news for Bravo 5 !

Zoran a question please: what is the accuracy of your pistol ?
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  #8  
Old 07-14-2007
PT-The Italian Commie's Avatar
PT-The Italian Commie PT-The Italian Commie is offline
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Default Re: Bad news for Bravo 5 !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoran
My invention is continuing the evolution in hand fire arms.As you know first there was one cartridges pistil,revolver and than automatic pistol.
It is completely logical to me that some time a new mechanism will develop which will make the functions of a revolver and a pistol together in the most practical and useful meaning.

Nothing new. There's a gun called the BROWNING BDM who does it since the year 1990.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoran
It is normal that Mr.Dardick has done this but he had to put every bullet in special cartridges(sabot) and as I recall it does not have the magazine but only 8 cartridges!Also it can not have the suppressor.

Wrong on that. The Dardick pistol used a magazine and held more than 16 rounds of ammunition. And the silencer option can only restrict its market. As in the example: there are lots of Countries (well, the majority of them) which prohibit or restrict civilian ownership of silencers and of firearms that readily accept them. In the very same Italy, no firearm with threaded barrel can be marketed to civilians: flash hiders-muzzle brakes must be permanently mated to the barrel via Loctite, soldering, or otherwise making them an "all-in-one" solution. Most of European countries, with the exception of 3 or 4, restrict or forbid the purchase, ownership and use of silencers. In the USA, silencers are regulated by Federal and State laws, and in some places are 100% forbidden. In most of those countries, the only ones who could have a "Bravo-5" are Military and Police personnel (not even Private security, which in most Countries can not be armed with Military/LE weapons but only with civilian-grade guns). This will tighten -A LOT- your marketspace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoran
Did you see how Bravo 5 will look in the serial production?

If that is the definitive look, then it's doomed. It is an outdated look that will never appeal customers, no matter how "useful" you deem it to be. It is OLD, do you understand? Old in fashion, old in design, old in shape and mind. It wimply won't work!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoran
I do not agree that the mehanism is complicated since it offers more than a standard weapon!

How can I tell you without hurting your feelings? It does -NOT MATTER- whether it offers more than a standard weapon or not. If the mechanism is complicated and expensive to tool, to produce, to operate, to maintain properly for the average user, nobody will be interested in it. The only way you could market effectively the operation system of your "Bravo-5" is to put the working system of this

http://www.securityarms.com/forums/a...1184409460.jpg

into something along the lines of this



or this



or this



AND, you have to make it simple and cheap to manufacture, to operate, to mantain. PLUS, you ahve to change it somehow: cycling the slide by pulling the trigger is -BAD-.

Otherwise, don't be surprised of nobody wanting it.
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"It is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself, when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law." -- Malcolm X

"We (atheists) act in good conscience because we believe in moral principles, not because we expect a reward in Heaven." -- Margherita Hack

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  #9  
Old 07-14-2007
Zoran Zoran is offline
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Default Re: Bad news for Bravo 5 !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger
Zoran a question please: what is the accuracy of your pistol ?
Perect hand gun or Perfect pistol!
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  #10  
Old 07-14-2007
PT-The Italian Commie's Avatar
PT-The Italian Commie PT-The Italian Commie is offline
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Unhappy Dearest Mr. Zoran...

Regarding your last post...

I am sorry if I look like being hostile towards you. I am just skeptic about your prototype which nobody seems to have proven otherwise, and such I'll remain until I'll be able to make a test by myself. That's how I face prolly most of things, not just your "Bravo 5".

By the way...

You have to understand, Mr. Zoran, that your attitudes here doesn't help you and/or your brainchild to obtain just acknowledgments. This your last answer to Roger's question is a clear example of how you behave here. You show diagrams (and nothing else) of a pistol design that looks frankly outdated, totally non-modern, non-ergonomic, long, heavy, difficult to handle and manage, and you simply claim it to be "perfect". You claim the impossibility for the gun to jam because of its single-handed slide-cycling capabilities, not recognizing that:
#1 - Pistols with single-handed slide-cycling capabilities have already been out there since the early 1900s with the Lignose "Einhand" pistol and later with Chinese designs still being manufactured, and that such single-handed cycling capability has proved itself practical to use only in very small-bore pistols, resulting heavy and almost impossible to operate properly (single-handedly) already when implemented on a full-size, 9mm pistol;
#2 - Your system has a major drawback, being it activated by pulling the trigger... which, let me remind you, is that mechanism that's supposed to make a gun -SHOOT-, so that a malfunction or a mis-operation could lead to catastrophic consequences;
#3 - Your system doesn't represents a true advantage on combat pistols, since jammings and misfires aren't actually reported so often and BTW in current situation of handgun combat, resolving the incumbence with the use of the non-trigger hand isn't a problem (remember: professional operators are trained to solve such problems quickly and without even -LOOKING- at their gun); not to mention the fact that the implementation of your system on a full-scale production gun requires special projects, tooling, working, and further expenses that eventually turn out in an additional cost on the overall price of the item;
#4 - Your pistol has a factory threaded barrel for sound suppressor, which will exclude it from the sale in most Countries (even silenced firearms used by Military and Police don't have a factory threaded barrel: them either come with integrally-silenced barrel or the sound suppressor is attached via an aftermarket threaded barrel; or, a quick attach/detach silencer is used which mates to standard barrels without needing any threading);
#5 - As far as I can understand, your pistol is so "perfectly silent" when used with a silencer because it can be switched to a fire mode that will prevent the slide to cycle, thus turning it into a single-shot pistol (requiring hand-cycling of the slide after each round fired to eject the spent case and chambering a new round) but also preventing the escape of gases through the ejection window and the working system, so that 100% of the gas is pushed through the barrel where it's "muffled" by the silencer. An ingenious system that ensures enhanced sound-suppression to a firearm. Too bad that it is already been used in the .9x19mm Smith&Wesson Morel Mk-23 "Hush Puppy" pistol used by the US Special Forces in Vietnam, and with the .7'62x25mm Type 64 and Type 67 suppressed handguns of Chinese manufacture.

Thus, not only you seem not able to understand, or recognize, that your design offers nothing new on the market except a melange of technical solutions already experimented in the past 90 years and that have already proved themselves expensive, complicated and simply too unpractical for the average/everyday gun use; but furthermore you don't seem able to answer a question properly. When you are asked about the accuracy of your pistol, all you can say is that the gun is, once again, "Perfect". I am sorry to tell you, Mr. Zoran, but that's not the kind of answer expected from a mature person and from a gun engineer. That will only make people be more and more doubtful about your project and capabilities. If you seriously want to receive the due acknowledgment for your hard work, you should better demonstrate its validity with hard facts and evidences.

Sincere regards,
PIERANGELO TENDAS
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"It is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself, when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law." -- Malcolm X

"We (atheists) act in good conscience because we believe in moral principles, not because we expect a reward in Heaven." -- Margherita Hack


Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 07-14-2007 at 04:24 PM.
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