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  #11  
Old 01-17-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
It has been shown a dozen times that Iraq had various WMDs as well as a nuclear research program BEFORE THE INVASION OF KUWAIT, when his programs were cheered at by the entire West. All "evidences" given by the US intelligence of those programs having been running after "Operation Desert Storm" have 100% been pointed as false by both international authorities AND the so-called "Iraqi members of the programs".

Blah blah blah blah blah.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3872201.stm

"The US has revealed that it removed more than 1.7 metric tons of radioactive material from Iraq in a secret operation last month.

"This operation was a major achievement," said US Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham in a statement.
He said it would keep "potentially dangerous nuclear materials out of the hands of terrorists". Along with 1.77 tons of enriched uranium, about 1,000 "highly radioactive sources" were also removed."


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5380542/

"UNITED NATIONS - The United States didn’t have authorization from the U.N. nuclear watchdog when it secretly shipped from Iraq uranium and highly radioactive material that could be used in so-called “dirty bombs,” U.N. officials said Wednesday."


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

"BAGHDAD, Iraq — A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent recently exploded near a U.S. military convoy, the U.S. military said Monday."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120268,00.html

"NEW YORK — Tests on an artillery shell that blew up in Iraq on Saturday confirm that it did contain an estimated three or four liters of the deadly nerve agent sarin, Defense Department officials told Fox News Tuesday."

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...0894DC4044 82

"American officials seize about 1,000 sources of radioactivity and nearly two tons of low-enriched uranium from Iraqi nuclear center in Tuwaitha"

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20060...2126-1788r.htm

"The new information includes audio recordings of 12 hours of conversations from the early 1990s through 2000 involving Saddam Hussein and his top aides, in which Saddam discusses how to conceal Iraqi weapons programs from U.N. inspectors and the possibility that the United States could be the target of terrorist attacks."


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=40777

"A trailer found by the U.S. in Northern Iraq last year likely was used by Saddam Hussein's regime as a mobile biological weapons laboratory, and not to fill hydrogen balloons as some in Britain and the U.S. have charged, a view supported by exclusive photos obtained by WorldNetDaily that for the first time offer inside views of the trailer components."


And those are just the ones I'm linking to off the top of my head.

Quote:
The fact that those very same Iraqi scientists have talked about running WMD programs in the late 1990s AFTER having been apprehended by "Coalition" troops and tortured half to death in Abu Grahib or Guantanamo only proves that your Administration is ready to do EVERYTHING to reach its dirty ends...



I see that human pyramids and pantie-hats are still torture in your eyes.

But even so... Let us assume that you are correct and that, indeed, the statement of every captured Iraqi scientist can't be trusted as factual.

Then how do you explain the taped conversations between Saddam and members of his military discussing their WMDs during this same said time period (late 90s)?

How do you explain a Sarin nerve gas artillery shell used on US troops... Sarin nerve gas that "didn't exist", I suppose?

How do you explain 1.77 tons of enriched uranium that Iraq was forbidden from having?




Quote:
which are NOT, let me repeat, any "defeat of terrorism". If G.W. Bush & Co. would have REALLY wanted to defeat terrorism, it would have been over since a long, and the tactics used would have been totally different from the ones employed now.

You're correct, if we were serious about defeating Islamic fascism, we would have nuked 3/4ths of the Islamic world on 9/12/01.

More is the pitty.

In the meantime we slug it out conventionally with a very strong foe.


Quote:
The fact is that Bush & Friends -DO NEED- a strong, clear and present, everlasting terrorist menace to justify their deeds in the eyes of the worldwide public opinion.

That's ironic coming from a member of the global leftist movement who uses the strong, clear, present and everlasting Bush menace to justify the deeds of his movement.


Quote:
62 years ago we all were fighting against the menace of Nazism. Which was NOT a false or exaggerated menace like the current "Terrorist threat" waved by the Bush administration.

False?

There have been over 7,000 islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11.

Exaggerated?

Iran seeks nuclear weapons with little effort to hide it, makes it publically known they want to "wipe Israel off the face of the earth" while claiming that the holocaust never happened.




Quote:
As I said at least 100 times, you can not compare the World War 2 with the current situation.

Typical liberal tactic. When a historical comparison makes too much sense, say you can't do it (because it isn't "fair").

Fine, don't want to compare it to WWII? Then we won't.

How about the Greco-Persian wars?


On one side you have the Hellenic civilization, believing that every person be he king or be he the lowest merchant stands equal before the gods, that females are human just as males, and that life is of value.

On the other side you have the barbaros, believing that the gods judge people by their class, that females are livestock, and the death is of value.


This war lasted over fifty years.

Among the hellenic states, many attempted to remain neutral in the conflict. Others allied themselves outright with the barbaros. Yet others claimed that the barbaros was no threat to the hellenic world at all, and that the Greek kings who said such were merely using the Persian's existance to their own gain.

They, of course, were wrong. The barbaros had full intent of destroying all of Greece.

And he almost did it, too.



Quote:
62 years ago, your Country was with the GOOD guys. At the present time, it's only a rumble between two rival criminal gangs for the control of the hood.

Whatever you say, Athenian.


Quote:
You know what? It's the same kind of stuff that UZI said when he stated that the "Liberal" ideologies are going to die because there are scientific evidences proving that the Left-wingers make less children.


Actually, it is more detailed than that. There is actually a complete scientific study on the issue which proves my claims. Care that I link it?

Quote:
It's clear as sun that you guys know jack and shit about the propagation of ideals.

80% of children assume the aproximate ideals of their parents.

Thus, whichever group has more children will grow the most.

Quote:
BTW, you call me liberal, you are assholes. You think that Liberals are left-wing? Down here, Liberals are just one step ahead of Fascism. Again, you know jack and shit about what's the real meaning of being "Left Wing".

Good to know just how many lightyears past left field you are.
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  #12  
Old 01-18-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Durden
So it would seem with Ws approval ratings....ah nevermind....

Seems like the 60's and 70's are paying off nicely. Fun to watch the death of a party.

For someone with no substance you are amusingly full of yourself.
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  #13  
Old 01-18-2007
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Default Right

"Which was NOT a false or exaggerated menace like the current "Terrorist threat" waved by the Bush administration."


Right because terrorists have killed no one worldwide in recent years.







Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
Humm, well, let's see... NO.

It has been shown a dozen times that Iraq had various WMDs as well as a nuclear research program BEFORE THE INVASION OF KUWAIT, when his programs were cheered at by the entire West. All "evidences" given by the US intelligence of those programs having been running after "Operation Desert Storm" have 100% been pointed as false by both international authorities AND the so-called "Iraqi members of the programs". The fact that those very same Iraqi scientists have talked about running WMD programs in the late 1990s AFTER having been apprehended by "Coalition" troops and tortured half to death in Abu Grahib or Guantanamo only proves that your Administration is ready to do EVERYTHING to reach its dirty ends... which are NOT, let me repeat, any "defeat of terrorism". If G.W. Bush & Co. would have REALLY wanted to defeat terrorism, it would have been over since a long, and the tactics used would have been totally different from the ones employed now. The fact is that Bush & Friends -DO NEED- a strong, clear and present, everlasting terrorist menace to justify their deeds in the eyes of the worldwide public opinion.



62 years ago we all were fighting against the menace of Nazism. Which was NOT a false or exaggerated menace like the current "Terrorist threat" waved by the Bush administration.
As I said at least 100 times, you can not compare the World War 2 with the current situation. 62 years ago, your Country was with the GOOD guys. At the present time, it's only a rumble between two rival criminal gangs for the control of the hood.



You know what? It's the same kind of stuff that UZI said when he stated that the "Liberal" ideologies are going to die because there are scientific evidences proving that the Left-wingers make less children.

It's clear as sun that you guys know jack and shit about the propagation of ideals.

BTW, you call me liberal, you are assholes. You think that Liberals are left-wing? Down here, Liberals are just one step ahead of Fascism. Again, you know jack and shit about what's the real meaning of being "Left Wing".
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  #14  
Old 01-19-2007
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Default You -KNOW- that I am serious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D Yankee (The Zionist)
Right because terrorists have killed no one worldwide in recent years.

Your Administration brags to have been able to "stop" further terror attacks on US soil past 9/11/2001.

The fact is that no new attacks were made to America past 9/11 because the terrorists were ALREADY BY THEMSELVES incapable to do so.

Let's face it: if the terrorists would have wanted to hit the homeland America again, they would have done it.

But an attack similar to the 9/11 one requires months, if not YEARS, of preparation and planning. Even something appearently simple like the Oklahoma City or the 1993 WTC bombing (it SEEMS easy to put a truck full of explosive beside a building and blow it up) requires extensive planning and preparation. It requires the time to infiltrate a terrorist in the homeland target, and make him accustom there; it takes time to gather the fundings to buy the explosive AND to obtain the plans of the building-target, to calculate the exact amount of explosive AND the knowledge of the exact position where to place the explosive to cause the most severe damage. THEN, last but not least, it takes time to intel the exact day and time when the attacker will be more likely to have access to the target without being intercepted.

It isn't so easy.

Even the 9/11 seemed stupid: buncha ragheads on planes with cratecutters.
But you have to find the right persons to infiltrate the planes and put the cratecutters in, where them won't be found by the security controls (the metal-detector WILL ring if you try to board a plane with a cratecutter on you; it did even before 9/11, at least here in Italy; if in the USA it was different, well, that's responsibility of YOUR airports security system). Above all, it takes time to train the terrorists to pilot the airplanes.

If the terrorist organizations haven't attacked America again, it's NOT because they are maimed in their capacity to act by the American "war on terror" strategy (want a demonstration? See the attacks in Madrid, in London, the everyday attacks in Iraq, Afghanistan and Israel/Palestine). If they haven't attacked America yet again, the reasons might only be:
#1: They have no longer any logistic way to operate in that part of the world. This makes them a very VERY weaker menace than what waved by the Bush Administration.
#2: They -ARE- preparing new attacks, which are still on a "sleeper cells" level: infiltration of personnel in the mainland America, fundings gathering, logistics, planning. If that's it, well, be prepared to a new "Kablooey", because you won't be able to stop them. Not if your politics on "War on terror" keeps on in the way it does now.

OH, to answer UZI... I have a few names for the news about use of Sarin against US troops, findings of radio-active materials in Iraq...
Well, let's see...

Propaganda?
Mass-Media manipulation?
Lies?
Bullshit?

You choose one.
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Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 01-19-2007 at 09:37 AM.
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  #15  
Old 01-19-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
#1: They have no longer any logistic way to operate in that part of the world. This makes them a very VERY weaker menace than what waved by the Bush Administration.

Have you imagined for a moment this could be BECAUSE of US actions? If they are logistically incapable now, something changed in the last 5 years because it wasn't true in the past. What changed? Obviously by whats going on in Iraq, there is no lack of homicidal hatred aimed at the US. DESIRE to do so isn't a question. They want to. If you think they don't you're beyond ignorant.

All you just said is based on 2 presumptions:

1. The US can't accomplish something, even if it wants to and dedicates resources. (I'd probably even grant you that in most cases.)

2. Islamic terrorists are capable of accomplishing anything they want. (If you believe this, you might as well bend over for your new neighborhood imam now.)

And the whole "If I don't like proven fact and science it must be made up" is wonderfully inane. Let's be honest, when someone points out something like that as made up, 9 times out of 10 it's because they don't want it to be true, having nothing to do with the sources.
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  #16  
Old 01-19-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
OH, to answer UZI... I have a few names for the news about use of Sarin against US troops, findings of radio-active materials in Iraq...
Well, let's see...

Propaganda?
Mass-Media manipulation?
Lies?
Bullshit?

You choose one.


The classic "any evidence that disproves my beliefs is fake" defense.

Okay, let's skip the whole sarin-gas thing, despite the fact it proves me correct all by itself.


How do you explain the audio tapes of Saddam and his aids talking about his nuclear and WMD program, in the mid-late 1990s?



But frankly, why don't we just drop this whole subject. We've fought this battle many times, and it is clear neither phalanx is capable of gaining ground on the other. Nothing I say will change your beliefs, and likely nothing you say will change mine. Let's just agree to completely disagree and get back to what this board is meant for.

Pax?
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  #17  
Old 01-20-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
How do you explain the audio tapes of Saddam and his aids talking about his nuclear and WMD program, in the mid-late 1990s?

You know (no, this time, seriously) that I have never heard of these tapes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
But frankly, why don't we just drop this whole subject. We've fought this battle many times, and it is clear neither phalanx is capable of gaining ground on the other. Nothing I say will change your beliefs, and likely nothing you say will change mine. Let's just agree to completely disagree and get back to what this board is meant for.

Pax?

Oh, well... SURE!

I don't want to end up like Tyler, and even then, sincerely, I would have never expected YOU to come out to me holding out the olive branch, so...

May this be a lesson for all mankind: PEACE AND UNITY. We can not allow ourselves to be divided and fighting each others at the outbreak of the Z-Day...
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  #18  
Old 01-21-2007
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Default so enlighten me

what is the true nature of the left wing since i have no idea whatsoever!
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  #19  
Old 01-21-2007
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Originally Posted by Dolphin_Shooter
what is the true nature of the left wing since i have no idea whatsoever!

BZZZT! DOES NOT COMPUTE!

Please specify the WHERE-abouts and WHEN-abouts upon which you wand a description of the "true nature of the left wing".

Because, if you talk about America, well, with your mindset, you have the Left Wing that you deserve.

In UK and Countries tied to it (Australia, New Zealand, Canada, etc.), they have the Labour Party which is still too much right-wing for the standards of the rest of the world (although, to say, Canada, has some timid opening to a true Socialist movement).

IN THE REST OF THE WORLD, the thing is pretty clear: the core of Left-Wing are social-democratic ideals, even in those Parties that still define themselves "Communists".
The core of a modern-day Left-Wing program includes social-democracy as a form of Government and State (in counterposition with what it's currently known as "Liberal Democracy").

Free enterprise is under State authorities control (in the sense of "surveillance") because nobody actually can believe that the "free market regulates itself": there are inequalities which are unacceptable and must be reduced (Italian constitution, article 41: "The private enterprise it's free, but it shall not be carried on in counterposition with social utility or in a way that will endanger human life, safety, liberty. The Law regulates programs and controls tasked to address and coordinate the private and public enterprise to social ends"). Those authorities are there to make sure that rules are respected, and to punish who breaks them.

Welfare state is a priority because people who works hard has all the G*DDAMN RIGHT to retirement, instruction and medical assistance (in Italy, that's a Constitutional right: articles 29 to 34); and people's work must be respected, tutelated and well retributed (again, another Constitutional right in Italy: articles 35 to 47).

"Re-distribution of incomes" is also a priority. The Italian Constitution (article 53) is another example for it: it's a duty for the citizen to contribute to the State budget according to its possibilities. This means: the more you gain, the more you are taxed. Because the State pays the Public services, which are essential, being them those fundamental services whose availability must be given to EVERYBODY, even to those who can't efford to pay for them. If a service is private, the private is allowed to ask the price that he wants: unavoidably, this will leave somebody out of the range of this service. And this can NOT happen for services such as public School, health system, water, power, heating, even food under a certain extent.

All individual, civil, political and human rights are granted.

After all, the difference between the Right-Wing and the Left-Wing is bound to the usual problem of Freedom, in the sense of the way Nikolaj Lenin intended it. Speaking of Freedom, Lenin's first problem was: "Freedom of WHO? To do WHAT?" (of course he indented "Freedom" for the upper classes to exploit the worker's class, which was a "Freedom" that shall not have been granted in any way). Stalin also used to say: "It's very difficult to live of sole 'Freedom' " (he intended how hard is to be "happy" for your rights when you have to struggle for survival every day).
The main difference between Left-Wing and Right-Wing stands in this main point. For the Right-Wing, the main "Freedom" is freedom of enterprise and property; freedom "from the State", we might say. For the Left-Wing, the main "Freedom" to be achieved is the "Freedom from the need" (in the sense of "Lack", "Poverty"), without which all other "Freedoms" are mere illusions. Italy of the years immediately after WW-2, or the modern-day former-Soviet republics, or Iraq, are a great example of it: what does "Freedom of expression" is, what's "Freedom of speech", when you simply have no way to exercise thiose rights because you are just too busy dodging bullets to take a piece of bread to your children every day? A citizen must be given the basic right to interest himself in politics, in administration of the Public thing, to make his voice be heard. In order to obtain this, you must FIRST OF ALL be sure that he has all the means and the possibilities to. A citizen who risks to die for the famine daily has none of these possibilities, no way if he has those "Rights" granted by a piece of paper signed by some big man.

THE EASY WAY: the citizens must be all as much socially equal as possible, in order to able to exercise those rights that extreme poverty inhibits from exercising. All the rest "comes along" (more correct should be said that them come "together"). It's not like it's forbidden to be richer than somebody else. It should be forbidden to be extremely poor, especially if this extreme poverty comes from a condition of exploitment. AND, for no reason the son of a peasant should be kept from attending the best schools, achieve results, and became, to say, a cosmonaut.

OH, but this is just a very simple way to put it down, and be advised that this is just the SOCIALIST (or, better, Social-Democrat) point of view, which is very similar to the point of view of the Labour movement (with the Labour movement being much more mild in the terms of economic measures).
I might suggest you a dozen (well, to be more specific, a dozen HUNDREDS) of books to read, written by the ideologists, theorists and chiefs of all Left-Wing movements around the globe, to have a clearer idea of what "being Left-Wing" means in different parts of the world.

Remember that we, the Italian Communists, weren't even considered "Communists" by, to say, the Soviets. They called us "Catholics"!
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  #20  
Old 01-21-2007
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Quite a few of those things are already extant in the US.

There are arguably strong contradictions between guaranteeing of rights and the necessary actions required to "free everyone from need".

But at any rate, I would strongly suggest you never quote Stalin as positive support to a statement.
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