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  #11  
Old 10-27-2007
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Default Believe me, people...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armorer
Comprehensibly:
The new beretta system is really just negating two factors with their design. It's a more secure, proven gas op on a supported barrel. for standard combat an 18" barrel is sound even with a 1:7 twist out to standard distance even in 3-round burst over fullauto.
I would not so readily compare the newer Beretta system to an HK but to the Magpul Masada.
If anything for compounded purpose-- the barrel issue should be then considered for two more lengths beyond 20"-- 24" and 26".

The AR(X)-160 ain't nothing THAT good.

You want the truth? The AR(X)-160 is just a cheapo XM8 knockoff made because some high-rank Military official or politician of the MoD fell in love with the XM8-LAR and wanted a low-cost equivalent for the Italian Army. PERIOD. If past this the weapon has any good, it still fully has to demonstrate it. And by now, it is not doing it.

I am NOT a Beretta hater, you all know it. But I have to recognize that something in the "new wave" of Beretta has gone terribly wrong. Much like Microsoft did with the Windows OS past the 98, they sacrificed performances for the look. The PX4-STORM 9mm pistol and CX4-STORM carbines, and the 90-TWO pistol, are not that good as you would think. The PX4 is just an updated Beretta Cougar, much like the 90-TWO is an updated M92-FS; and the CX4-STORM, well, better not to think about it. The .223-Remington/5'56x45mm RX4-STORM semi-automatic carbine is a whole different story, it -IS- a damn good sporter, plinker, survival, and Police patrol carbine, but that's because it is nothing else than a "tacticized" Benelli ARGO, made around the Benelli's patented "Auto-Regulating Gas-Operated" working system, which Benelli engineered before they were absorbed by Beretta.

What's wrong with Beretta is that they have constituted a "Holding", incorporating Benelli, Franchi, SAKO of Sweden, and Burris and Stoeger of the United States. Now that they are huge enough to compete strongly on the world market, they are acting like a Superpower. Much like Colt did. And you know exactly what Colt's conditions currently are.
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Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 10-27-2007 at 03:43 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-27-2007
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Default Re: Believe me, people...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
What's wrong with Beretta is that they have constituted a "Holding", incorporating Benelli, Franchi, SAKO of Sweden, and Burris and Stoeger of the United States.
Our Finnish friends may be sad reading this
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Old 10-27-2007
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Default Re: [req] Technical data of the Beretta ARX-160

I rather liked the double action trigger pull on the PX-4 I handled at last year's SHOT show, but that's about all of my experience with one.
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Old 10-27-2007
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Sorry for my typo about "SAKO of Sweden", I was thinking to something else (see my other post "New Weapon System from Sweden").

As for the PX4-STORM, yes, the DA trigger is good, even if here in Italy it is sold in the SA/DA version. Its main problem is that its rotating barrel system is so effective in dissipating recoil energy that it leads to jammings in the 9mm variant as it dissipates more energy than an average 9mm load can actually produce.

On the AR(X)-160, they have implemented something already seen in firearms like the SITES M-4 "Spectre" sub-machinegun and in the Brazilian .5'56mm LAPA FA Modelo 03 bull-pup assault rifle: the possibility of keeping the gun with the safety disengaged and strike the first round with a DOUBLE-ACTION trigger pull. According to some cone-heads in the Army, this system is due to enhance "reaction readiness" in soldiers deployed in "hot zones", 'cause they will be finally able to safely have their weapons always at ready and KEEP THEIR FINGERS ON THE TRIGGER AT ALL TIMES.

Now, Double-Action First-shot trigger pull or not, keeping the finger on the trigger at ALL times sounds to me like a violation of ALL rules of gun safety I've been thaught of since I was a child. So, you can make an idea on your own about the smartasses who wanted the AR(X)-160.
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Old 10-27-2007
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Default Re: [req] Technical data of the Beretta ARX-160

True enough--
I never said it was good for much-- and it's not up to the Masada, just that it's aesthetically and mechanically more like the Magpul, and not the HK or Sig 556.

I'm not happy with what I'm seeing happen with Beretta's tactical line. Their shotguns remain the introductory level of luxury grade wood and scroll work--but "new" tactical pieces are (as you stated) revamped old models--
Thank you for adding an Italian voucher to my old opinion the PX4 is a dressed down Cougar. Likewise the 90-Two is a polymer vertec with lightened slide and rail cover.
The "new" AR line is nothing to proud of, and given their projected (and current) cost to the american public:
Given a choice between the HK MR223, Sig 556, Robinson XCR, Magpul Masada, and Beretta AR/XR-xx....
No contest, I'll stick with magpul.
Again, Beretta's recent choice of designs has been lacking.
Even while companies such as Sig and Smith and Wesson have introduced a 1911, Beretta's fallen behind....
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Old 10-27-2007
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The AR(X)-160 will never be introduced on the civilian market as a sporterized weapon. Beretta feels they have already done their part by selling to civvies the RX4-Storm carbine in its "Tactical" variant (320mm BBL with flash hider, pistol grip, 4-positions telescopic stock). It already is on sale to civvies here in Italy, but as far as for America, the Beretta USA website lists it as a "LE-only firearm". Here is what I am talking about




And this is as close as we will get to a civilian AR(X)-160. The truth is that Beretta has NO INTENTION WHATSOEVER to sell "Tactical" weapons to civilians. They will not make a civilian AR-160. Believe me, I have (unofficially) asked a Beretta head honcho at the EXA.

The RX4-STORM is however a very, VERY good carbine. A true gem in current Beretta line. Especially in the form pictured above, an excellent alternative to the AR-15 as for civilian uses and Police patrol. Get one if you can.

Also, their shotguns are a top line because the production lines and people are different. It's like they are made by two different companies.
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  #17  
Old 10-27-2007
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Default Re: [req] Technical data of the Beretta ARX-160

PT-- I think we're having a mix up in translation-- What I implied was the same as you. Beretta's fallen behind in the LE/Military field and has no plans to catch up by appearances. I Merely note a sad note in so far as they are an excellent shotgun company, but fail to see fit to supply dedicated customers with weapons for self protection.
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  #18  
Old 10-28-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armorer
What I implied was the same as you. Beretta's fallen behind in the LE/Military field and has no plans to catch up by appearances. I Merely note a sad note in so far as they are an excellent shotgun company, but fail to see fit to supply dedicated customers with weapons for self protection.

The reason is simple: Beretta gains already very much with a certain type of weapons (shotguns and pistols) on the civilian markets. They don't really want to invest on "Tactical-style" firearms for civilians. As for their backwardness on the LE/Military field, they could moderately give a shit: they have way too many clouts in the Italian politics (especially within the Ministry of Defence) and withint the higher ranks of the Italian military. Whatever Beretta will introduce, our government will buy it, even if that's shit (it's the case of the AR(X)-160). The reason why the aren't selling any longer "Tactical-style" firearms to civilians (with the exception of that particular version of the RX4-STORM, which is available to civvies in Italy but restricted to LE in the USA) is probably the same why H&K didn't immediately prepared a civvie G-36 to sell despite everybody wants it.

I think that there are agreements between the major gunmakers in the world and the Gun Control groups, according to which the gunmakers don't sell "Tactical"/"Assault" weapons to civilians, and in exchange the politicians tied to Anti-gun lobbies ensure them enormous amounts of money in governmental contracts.
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"It is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself, when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law." -- Malcolm X

"We (atheists) act in good conscience because we believe in moral principles, not because we expect a reward in Heaven." -- Margherita Hack

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  #19  
Old 10-29-2007
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Default Re: [req] Technical data of the Beretta ARX-160

Unfortunately, Italy accidentally falls under one aspect of Heinleinian Socialism I do not like: monopolized firearms.
Granted, there are a number of other fine Italian manufacturters such as Zoli, Caeser Guerina, Renalto Gambia, etc. However, their international influence is again relegated to expensive, fine shotguns. There's an old saying among wingshooters-- "_____ is as fine as an Italian shotgun."
However, with a guarenteed market with the government, the limitations on exporting--
And most importantly: an overall apathy on developing mil-spec weapons--
Beretta has failed to recognize their own limitations within the American market.
Case in point-- in working for gun stores, it was guarenteed that the bottom dollar shopper would buy a 200 dollar mossberg.
His middle income buddy is going to look at a Reminton 1100 or older winchester, say, model 100. Or if he's a cheapass-- a charles Daly.
The really sad factor-- regardless of nationality, jingoism, or otherwise intellectual siding factor-- the richer they are, the generally less informed a potential buyer-- as such, you've got really rich assholes who don't know shit about guns, but willing to drop 20-80 THOUSAND on a Dupont or Krieghoff shotgun.
Beretta's potential fault in business (and why they've created their holding umbrella) is the fact that Beretta shotguns hardly register on possible purchases for the really rich asshole (unless it's a DT10 Trident) and is far to out of reach for the average consumer.
True-- beretta's Teknys shotgun line is the nicest semi-auto shotgun hands down. Between wood and engraving, they're gems-- but at a greater cost of 12 to 14 hundred dollars a pop-- putting it out of reach for most buyers-- the average joe buying a spitter is looking for something like a franchi, AL3901, Remington 1100, Winchester X2, or a Benelli. The Extrema line of shotguns nicely fills that void, but again-- not enough folks are willing to spend more than a couple hundred for a spitter-- much less the better part of 2-grand.

No-- Beretta's painting themselves in a potential corner-- with more Italian firms offering better selections of engraving and furniture for comparable prices-- or less than beretta's top-of-the-line, and no defensive catagory-- they're not leaving a lot of room for selves to grow.
The franchi/stoeger line is soaking up alot of low-income consumers, ultimately leaving less profit margin. In time this will inherently result in even basic guns like the American AL3901 series lacking-- their only recourse on their current track is to make models like the 686 and 682 more affordable to the general public-- even if it means dropping the price of the DT-10 down to 3-4 thousand just to keep pace with Blaser's F3 shotgun.

As an American Beretta shooter, I have been ultimately dissappointed with Beretta's recent innovations in terms of the grander market.
Like the phasing out of beretta centerfire rifles--
Don't get me wrong, I love Tikka/Sako rifles-- Ideally, I'd like to have a Silver Wolf Sako III in 7mm-08 as a scout carbine. But I remember REAL Beretta rifles-- so damn expensive they came with a free Ziess or Khales scope-- and miss'em.
The only good from recent buy-outs has been seeing better quality guns from Stoeger and Uberti for SASS competition and the new beretta semi-auto line featuring hybrid recoil-gas op systems. With new Beretta shotguns combining 391 gas op with Benelli inertia reduction-- you can feed'em damn near anything without a hiccup unlike new Browning and Remington semi-autos, which tend to be sensitive to how heavy a load you're shooting.

But!
While we've the likewise new Benelli assault shotguns using he same kind of mix-- there's nothing out there to make them easier to reload or use in tactical/practical and IPSC 3-gun.
I am not a Race shooter by any stretch, however, I do enjoy 3-gun comp working between single stack .45, AR15, and 12ga. 00buck/slug. Right now, I've been borrowing a friend's Wilson ScatterTech shotgun, an old PD K9 winchester from back in the 80's.

There's nothing militaristic about what Beretta would have to do accomodate competitive shooters.
If they're handing out that kinda crap to the Italian military-- it just ultimately shows a lack of foresight on the whole of their marketing strategy.

There's going to be a Beretta meet and greet tour here shortly-- A "Walk through the world of Beretta" deal visiting "major" retailers catering to the public-- five stores: Kevins, Orvis, Gamaliel, some firm in Texas, and another in Washington state.
I've been invited to go to the affair at Kevins in Thomasville, it's a scant 45 minutes from me. I've already arranged to interviewtheir master engraver Luca Casari as a freelance sort of deal. I'm hoping to submit it to a few of the snootier gun rags for publication. It's not so easy for even those of us with secondary post graduate college degrees to get jobs writing for gun magazines here.

In all, PT-- tell me why beretta's yet to come up with a metal finish able to withstand corrosive sweat like Springfield's Armory Kote. These sorts of details go hand in hand with milspec developments. This is what I'm saying Beretta's losing out on in not taking a positive stance in defensive weapons. They're barely holding onto the damn military contract when most PD's have gone from the 92FS to the Smith and Wesson to the Glock and now even my local police department is looking at getting rid of their glocks for either sigs, Springfield XD's, or even Smith and Wesson M&Ps.
Beretta doesn't have the same backing as FN and they atleast make milspec weapons such as the FNSP90, FN2000, and FNFive-Seven. With more and more firms importing fine grade shotguns and companies like CZ, Weatherby, and even Ruger offering more affordable lower grade option shotguns-- the market is closing.
Folks are freaked there's gonna be another ban with Hillary--
The rise in steel costs--
Domesticated low grades such as Huglu and Spartan/IZMH are flooding the market--
The gun industry's seen at least a 600 dollar hike in prices across the board for desireable weapons-- Springfield TRP's (for example) that were going for 980-1,100 dollars back in January 2007 are now selling in the 1,500-2,000 dollar range.
Beretta's going to find themselves in a disadvantage before long-- there will be too many better looking, more afforadable shotguns in both low and high grade--
There will be no market in civillian or LEO for something like the RX4.
The one advantage Sig and HK have done is limit certain models on the market-- they're considered shrewd, but they don't take many risks. I think HK got burned on the SL8: it was released too soon, the public wasn't ready for something that looked like that and too many states prohibited them in the long run. There was no international market and importation costs drove the price above (then) matchgrade AR prices.
Their current cost is still no bargain-- especially considering the average joe could build an AR more fit to his desired looks and needs for a fraction of the cost.
However, I do believe that if HK simply sold 416-style recievers, and instead of producing complete rifles-- offered an updaded SL8 in XM8 style furniture, they'd over take the competition. Why? Because joe-don't-know-schmoe Public wants an XM8 lookalike. An AR is an AR to the average consumer-- most don't know diddly about piston uppers-- their current costs make them too expensive anyways-- and none in a desirable caliber (such as 7.62).
But the current up-coming customer is going to be familiar with what they've seen in movies and games of the XM8-- it's their generation's G36. Screw the 416-- an SL8 in xm8 style attire will crush the market-- if made cheaply enough (say, MSRP 1,200-1,500) they'd ruin the current AR market.
Has anyone at Beretta considered something like this? Probably-- which is why they don't bother with milspec-- but it remains to be their potential ruin.
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  #20  
Old 10-29-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armorer
Unfortunately, Italy accidentally falls under one aspect of Heinleinian Socialism I do not like: monopolized firearms.

No such thing in Italy.

Well, at least not for "Socialistic" reasons of any kind. The reason is pretty Capitalistic instead. Beretta is the oldest gun factory in the Country and one of the oldest in the world. Governments in Italy have relied upon Beretta products for centuries and that's why they keep on going for them. Up until the end of World War 2 they actually -DID- tried to make a Governmental monopoly on (military) firearms, installing several government-owned, government-controlled or government-sponsorized arsenals (Fabbrica d'Armi di Terni, Armaguerra, MIDA-Brescia, FNAB, etc.), and this process boosted during the Fascist regime, possibly trying to untie the military supplies from the whims of the private sector. The experiment was a mess, and now, believe me, the entire firearms sector in Italy is ENTIRELY capitalistic. Government-surveilled, as everywhere else in the world, but totally capitalistic. With the WORST ASPECTS of capitalism, like a company that has acquired a position of almost-monopoly due to its history, and feels that it can rest on its laurels, not investing on innovations but on political couplings to keep living on governmental orders when the very same Military has realized that the best is to be looked somewhere else.

On the other side, we have the shotguns and pistols brand of Beretta that goes extremely well, with tremendously good products. It's just like if Beretta actually has two different souls.
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