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  #11  
Old 12-15-2007
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Default Re: VHS rifle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMOV
The 2nd generation of the 5,56-mm VHS assault rifle ouside maybe looks like a FA MAS, but inside there is a different mechanism, with normal gas port etc., and without second ejection window, unfortunately...

BTW, too bad if they decide to adopt this configuration instead of the early one. Wonder what led them to change config. AFAIK, the VHS spawned from the Israeli TAVOR: the Croatians tested it and liked it, but discarded it when IWI (back then still IMI) refused to grant the rights and provide technology for local manufacturing. Hence why the early VHS config looks much more like a Tavor. Why they later decide to go to something more FA-MAS-ish, I couldn't tell. The early one was much more versatile, with all in-house rails and quick-attachment UBGL.
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  #12  
Old 12-15-2007
Grenadier Toebanger Grenadier Toebanger is offline
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Default Re: Trivia_Bullpup

The first image could be a 'poor mans' FAMAS and probably a semi auto weapon.

Still interesting though.
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  #13  
Old 06-14-2008
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Unhappy VHS assault rifle.

I have decided to retake this VEEERY OLD thread 'cause I have finally found the first "clean" picture of the right side of said weapon (Croatian HS-Produkt Model VHS 5'56x45mm bull-pup assault rifle, due to become soon the standard service rifle for Croatian Police and Armed Forces). Let me remember you that Croatia
has recently received an "invitation" to become a NATO member.



Okay, first of all: this seems to be the final version of the VHS; it departs from the original, much more aggressive and good-looking but above all FUNCTIONAL lines to turn into something much more FAMAS-ish. I still said it's too bad that the Croatians are adopting this version of the VHS rather than the first one, which had won the iKA innovation award in the year 2006; this one has no innovation at all to show.
Remember that the VHS traces its roots back to the Israeli IWI "Tavor"; that's what the Croatians wanted, but they did wanted to manufacture it locally rather than purchasing it from Israel. IWI denied the permission, 'cause they have an old little "problem" with Croatia (ARMA-GRUPA DOO subsidiary "Koncar Arma" manufactures in Croatia since around 1995 two unlicensed clones of the UZI sub-machinegun: the ERO, a full-sized version, and the Mini-ERO, a compact machinepistol). The VHS was thus born as a local knockoff. My assumption is that the first VHS incarnation had too much in common with the Tavor, and that the Israelis threatened lawsuit or something like that, forcing the Croatians to give up and redeploy to a different design.

By the way, my first impression is that this weapon lacks what other bull-pups (FN F-2000, KBP A-91M, Kel-Tec RFB) have already achieved: a bull-pup without the typical drawbacks of the bull-pup. That big carry handle that protects the cocking handle reduces versatility; the earlier VHS incarnation had one too, but it had several built-in rails which also allowed to have optics installed sideways to it. This "new" VHS also lacks the quick attach-detach system for the 40mm UBGL that had conceived in the earlier version.

That thing you see in front of the trigger is the hold-open release device, which is very useful to have at trigger finger reach. Too bad that same thing can not be said for the magazine release catch, which is still located behind the magazine housing. It could have been put over the trigger guard like in the Tavor; or still on the back but in the form of an easy-to-operate button; no, it is a flat lever that requires you to raise your gun with the barrel up, grab the magazine with one hand, push it with the thumb and pull the magazine away to perform the change. I have personal experience with the magazine change system of the Steyr AUG and I can tell you that it's horribly HARD. Wonder how this will be. At least, using STANAG magazines, they could have done it with a simple push button and a free-fall device: when your gun runs out of bullets you grab another magazine from your harness with the left hand, reach back, push the button, the empty magazine falls down, you insert the other one with the left hand, then push the hold-open release with the trigger finger to have the gun ready again to shoot; you don't even have to move the gun away from your shoulder. THAT's a system. S**T, it's even used in the SA-80, yes, the crappy Briton SA-80, but NO, the Croatians wanted something half-way between the AUG and the FA-MAS, so much for speedy magazine change.

AND, it has a WIDE, LONG ejection port on the right side. Sure, it will prevent jammings from incorrect/incomplete spent brass ejection. But with no deflectors, it will also prevent the user to shoot the rifle from the left shoulder, which is a good, very good thing to have handy when you have to fight exploiting every cover you can find around. Even the Singaporean SAR-21, with its right-side only ejection, has solved the problem: they put a huge deflector so that you can fire it from the left shoulder and the brass is ejected forward with no chance in hell to pour in your face.

I am sincerely disappointed to see that the Croatians have done THIS to a rifle that I considered a good innovation when I first saw the early version. No wonder, as they were in a hurry to integrate with NATO systems and they choose a lower end, fast and easy way to. But they definitely took a wrong path.
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  #14  
Old 06-15-2008
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Arrow Re: Trivia_Bullpup

Croatian HS-Produkt Model VHS (the other side )



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  #15  
Old 06-16-2008
Grenadier Toebanger Grenadier Toebanger is offline
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Default Re: Trivia_Bullpup

What operation does it use?, Does it use Direct-Gas or the conventional Piston?
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  #16  
Old 06-17-2008
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Arrow Re: Trivia_Bullpup

"Externally, it may look like a fuse of Tavor, Tavor 2 and FAMAS, but internally, there's a different story; when fired, gun powder gasses push the bolt backward via piston, that much is the same as in almost all assault rifles. However, the unique feature of this gun is that it has additional gas vent that leads some of the gases into a chamber located BEHIND the bolt. As the bolt moves backward, it's gradually slowed down and then softly stopped by a gas cushion, rather then coming into an abrupt stop as it reaches it's most backward position, causing recoil. This feature makes VHS, well, not recoilless, but very low recoil and easy to fire..."

More infos and shemas HERE
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  #17  
Old 06-20-2008
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Default Re: Trivia_Bullpup


5,56-mm VHS-K Carbine


5,56-mm VHS-D Assault Rifle

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Last edited by REMOV : 06-20-2008 at 01:16 PM.
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  #18  
Old 06-20-2008
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Cool Whoa!

THNX, Remov, for those GREAT pics! Where did you snapped them?

By the way, I am still disappointed that it doesn't features at least a deflector that would allow left-hand shooting. I have been thinking of this thing for a while, now, you know, when an idean enters your mind and just gets stuck there... manufacturing a bull-pup with right-side only ejection window (keeping it simple) yet making it capable of being readily firable by lefties. My solution would be to make a deflector that "envelopes" the whole ejection window, on the top and either on both sides or on the back side only. Imagine something along the lines of the cap of a cigarette packet covering the ejection window, forcing the spent cases forward and downwards or, better, downwards only. My idea resembles something like this, only covering fully the top of the ejection port, the other side, and the front as well, leaving only a hole downwards so that the ejected case can only go down. It should also not be soldered but pivoted on top and snap-locked on the two sides, so that it can be unlocked and raised if you need to access the chamber.
The only problems I can think of with such a design is in firearms with a particularly violent ejection it could cause jammings by "rebouncing" the spent case back to the ejection port... your impressions? And, may somebody with knowledge of design make a sketch of it, if you understood my idea? You'd better not put a pencil in my hands...
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Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 06-20-2008 at 12:57 PM.
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  #19  
Old 06-20-2008
REMOV REMOV is offline
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Default Re: Whoa!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
THNX, Remov, for those GREAT pics! Where did you snapped them?
In Paris, yesterday, at the Eurosatory.
Quote:
By the way, I am still disappointed that it doesn't features at least a deflector that would allow left-hand shooting.
Well, PT, you will be pleased, but the VHS assault rifle is already equipped with such deflector, which is draw on the slides enclosing the ejection window.
Quote:
My solution would be to make a deflector that "envelopes" the whole ejection window, on the top and either on both sides or on the back side only.
The Croats already have such device. So it will be no candy


Think about something which is put on those slides.
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War is a game played with a smile; if you can`t smile, grin.
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Last edited by REMOV : 06-20-2008 at 01:19 PM.
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  #20  
Old 06-20-2008
REMOV REMOV is offline
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Default Re: Trivia_Bullpup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger
"Externally, it may look like a fuse of Tavor, Tavor 2 and FAMAS, but internally, there's a different story; when fired, gun powder gasses push the bolt backward via piston, that much is the same as in almost all assault rifles. However, the unique feature of this gun is that it has additional gas vent that leads some of the gases into a chamber located BEHIND the bolt (...)
Unfortunately, the present version of the 5,56-mm HS VHS assault rifle has a different operation system. By the way, the Croats are working on the 7,62-mm battle rifle... in bullpup design.
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Last edited by REMOV : 06-20-2008 at 01:20 PM.
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