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  #21  
Old 04-23-2006
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Eh, plenty of people hold the "sand nigger" sentiment. I don't, but it's not uncommon.

Infantilizing the Iranians? That's what you're doing, by saying they've been brainwashed by Islam and they all unequivocally hate us 24/7. "The Iranians are such children! They don't know any other way! They just hate and hate because they want toys and cake!". That's what it sounds like.

Iran dislikes (ok, we'll use your word, hates) the West due to combination of politically motivated simple-minded religious furor, culture clash, and the fact that they've been screwed around with by the West (US, UK, and the Soviet Union) since the 1940s. The less educated Iranians go for the bread and circus frenzy of the former, the more educated ones go for the latter.

Either way, it's not without cause that they don't view us (being the West, as a whole) in a peachy light. If Islam (and more appropriately, Islamic fundamentalism - there are varying degrees of practice, just like in Judaism and Christianity) is to blame, it's only because we helped encourage the conditions for it to get a hold on the reins of power. We chose bad friends instead of good enemies, and we are paying the price for this today.

I fail to see the equivalency in anything I've said. Kindly point this out.
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  #22  
Old 04-23-2006
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Default Bah.

Still say that everything will end up in a soap bubble. Nonetheless, your Country should stop playing with something -THAT- big as the war is. I don't see the reason why you are always in a desperate need for an enemy (no, no, wait, I SEE WHY, but cannot say it here just because I want to start no war with ya). Watch out, guys, if you keep on going around looking for rumble, sooner or later you'll find it.
About mobilizing your Reserve and calling people to arms, I still suggest your governants to take the chill pill. A huge call to arms in modern USA would just result in a major mobilization towards Canada and Mexico.
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  #23  
Old 04-23-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kthulhu
Eh, plenty of people hold the "sand nigger" sentiment. I don't, but it's not uncommon.

Infantilizing the Iranians? That's what you're doing, by saying they've been brainwashed by Islam and they all unequivocally hate us 24/7. "The Iranians are such children! They don't know any other way! They just hate and hate because they want toys and cake!". That's what it sounds like.

Iran dislikes (ok, we'll use your word, hates) the West due to combination of politically motivated simple-minded religious furor, culture clash, and the fact that they've been screwed around with by the West (US, UK, and the Soviet Union) since the 1940s. The less educated Iranians go for the bread and circus frenzy of the former, the more educated ones go for the latter.

Either way, it's not without cause that they don't view us (being the West, as a whole) in a peachy light. If Islam (and more appropriately, Islamic fundamentalism - there are varying degrees of practice, just like in Judaism and Christianity) is to blame, it's only because we helped encourage the conditions for it to get a hold on the reins of power. We chose bad friends instead of good enemies, and we are paying the price for this today.

?We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analyzing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will." --- Neville Chamberlain.
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  #24  
Old 04-23-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
Still say that everything will end up in a soap bubble. Nonetheless, your Country should stop playing with something -THAT- big as the war is. I don't see the reason why you are always in a desperate need for an enemy (no, no, wait, I SEE WHY, but cannot say it here just because I want to start no war with ya). Watch out, guys, if you keep on going around looking for rumble, sooner or later you'll find it.

I find it funny that you're sitting inside the missile range of a madman and yet you say the United States has a 'desperate need for an enemy'.

Quote:
About mobilizing your Reserve and calling people to arms, I still suggest your governants to take the chill pill. A huge call to arms in modern USA would just result in a major mobilization towards Canada and Mexico.

I'm not saying it would be needed for Iran, I'm just pointing out what could be done. Kthulhu made a statement that a call up of the reserves might not be possible, when military training, contingency plans and tests say otherwise.

Canada and Mexico will never lift a finger no matter what the United States does with its military, as long as no direct action against Canada and Mexico are taken. The United States could draft every American between 17 and 45, and give each of them an abrams tank, and Mexico couldn't care less.

North America is not turn-of-the-century Europe, just because one nation mobilizes will not cause an equal reaction in the others.
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  #25  
Old 04-23-2006
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I think he means, people will rush to Canada and Mexico to avoid military service.
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  #26  
Old 04-23-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kthulhu
I think he means, people will rush to Canada and Mexico to avoid military service.

And I would care... why? The ones leaving are no asset to the United States, it's like evolution on a national scale.

Also, I doubt many members of the Guard/Reserves would flee to avoid service if their units were called up. Some would, but you could count them on one hand most likely.
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  #27  
Old 04-23-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
?We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analyzing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will."

Nice quote. I agree completely.

As for me "sitting in the missiles range of a madman", we still have to see if he really has the capabilities to launch them, and if any, I think that Western Europe would NOT be a target. Let's be realistic: in an event of an Iranian missile attack, the main target would be Israel. But the Iranian missile capabilities are so small by now and they are so much pissing in their pants for an US invasion that they will hold them tight to use them against attacking forces.

Quote:
PT- I agree with you. The Grand EUrinal has shown that it will not rise to the defense of freedom and democracy. Cowards almost to the man, it's far more important to triangulate in hopes that the "Deux Rives" fantasy will materialize, and that the Muslims will consider Europe their friends and not enemies. The incredible fallacy of that line of thought is evident every time one of them blows up one of your buses or trains- support for Israel isn't what they hate you for (as we all know Europeans would throw the filthy Jews to the wolves if they thought it would make friends), it's being non-Muslim. Comrade Prodi has tipped his hat (or rather his red beret) to those of us who knew to expect no better- unless the criminal UN is involved, no Italian troops.

Dearest Bacon Guy, if I was called to comment on your quote, I am afraid I would be forced to submerge you under a rain of shit trying to explain you that war is NOT the European national sport, especially if it is started by a Country which instead -HAS- it as the national sport, and how I would fight night and day to keep troops not only from Italy but from the rest of the EU to be deployed if it's not under the call of the UN with the "Blue Helmets" insigna or if the borders of an EU-member country aren't directly menaced from the attack of a foreign country under the rules of the International Right (official declaration of war from a foreign government, REGULAR foreign troops and not "terrorists" or "militias" attacking, and one part of the national territory invaded). Everything else is YOUR business, YOU started the war on Afghanistan and Iraq and are willing to set Iran on fire, it's YOUR business to do the mess and clean it up. We will stay back and laugh.
Military is for defence of the national territory. "War" on terrorism sure is a priority matter, nonetheless it's a LAW ENFORCEMENT matter.
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  #28  
Old 04-23-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
Nice quote. I agree completely.

Of course you'd agree with the man whose inaction plunged Europe into bloodiest war in human history.

Quote:
As for me "sitting in the missiles range of a madman", we still have to see if he really has the capabilities to launch them,

The Iranians are very good with missile technology, that's a proven fact.

Quote:
and if any, I think that Western Europe would NOT be a target.

Of course not, why the hell would he attack his best allies?

Quote:
Let's be realistic: in an event of an Iranian missile attack, the main target would be Israel.

And who cares if Tel Aviv is wiped out in nuclear holocaust... It's only Jews, after all.



How many times can history repeat itself in a single century?


Quote:
But the Iranian missile capabilities are so small by now and they are so much pissing in their pants for an US invasion that they will hold them tight to use them against attacking forces.

Mutually Assured Destruction only deters those who dislike the idea of their own destruction.
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  #29  
Old 04-23-2006
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Default Just as I thought...

So plenty of people hold that view (in your estimation), so you can try and tar me with it? No deal, and you owe me an apology. Way to backpedal.

Neither have I called anyone brainwashed (that's another nice case of projection), nor have I said anything about "unequivocally", or "24/7". Obviously, though, I have a much deeper understanding of Islam, and the pathology of contemporary Muslim thought...after all, I'm the one who's read The Big Three, Qutb, and a number of other contemporary and historical Islamic tracts. I'll assume- based on your arguments- that you have not. One need not even do these things- simply listen to your average Muslim inhabitant of the Mideast, and they'll fill your ears with all manner of religious and historical reference...you see, the average Arab- regardless of education- has a much finer knowledge of his history than most westerners do of their own, so many of their references are lost on those of us unfamiliar with their history and literature. I can excuse that degree of ignorance on your part.

You inadvertently reinforce my contention that you infantilize them when you say:


Quote:
Iran dislikes (ok, we'll use your word, hates) the West due to combination of politically motivated simple-minded religious furor, culture clash, and the fact that they've been screwed around with by the West (US, UK, and the Soviet Union) since the 1940s. The less educated Iranians go for the bread and circus frenzy of the former, the more educated ones go for the latter.

You have simply removed any motivation of their own...the poor Muslims
are just reacting to mean westerners (nevermind that the USSR wasn't part of the West), rabble-rousing preachers, and whatever "culture clash" is.
No culturally-ingrained ideals inform on their behavior...of course not! Perish the thought! Nothing to see here! We're all the same inside! Islam means "peace"!

And you mouth these silly platitudes in spite of what we actually know of Islamic terrorists- that they are not the poor and disposessed. Your misapprehension seems to imply that if they were, then giving them all new homes and nice cars like Shazad Tanweer had would make the problem go away. It doesn't. The Kennedy School of Harvard tells us this again and again in its study of the demography of terrorists. Google it yourself.

You are imposing your wishful westerner's ideals on them when you assume that the dumb, poor ones are the Islamofascists. You couldn't be any further from correct. It is the exact opposite...the terrorists are the very cream of Muslim society.

However, when you say we made it possible for them to flourish, you have no idea how right you are- but you also must be aware that it was under the eyes of other believers in the ridiculous "there are varying degrees of practice, just like in Judaism and Christianity" inanity you put forth- Dhimmi Khadr and his fellow transnationalist idiotopians at the UN- that Islamofascism was allowed to flourish. Perhaps the bombing they are so energetically courting would have been more judiciously applied in 1979. We could even blame France for allowing Khomeini to board that flight without being snugly ensconced in a casket.

Not that I should waste time on anyone so incredibly foolish as to continue to self-identify as a communist in this late day and age (how many hundreds of millions is too many dead for the sake of an ideology?), but seriously...I'll just warm up my ACME Sytnax De-Garbler and have at it...

You bleat:
Quote:
if I was called to comment on your quote, I am afraid I would be forced to submerge you under a rain of shit

So that's what you call your debating technique? The "Rain of Shit" style? Very interesting, grasshopper.

Then you squeak:

Quote:
war is NOT the European national sport

Well, obviously not. You're good at starting the two biggest wars ever fought, it's just that you suck at fighting anyone other than women and children once they have been separated from their menfolk. Srebrenica, anyone? Mostar, anyone?

And then you squawked:

Quote:
a Country which instead -HAS- it as the national sport

And all this time, I thought Baseball was the national pastime. Oh well. You did mean America, right?

Then you revealingly stammer out:
Quote:
I would fight night and day to keep troops not only from Italy but from the rest of the EU to be deployed if it's not under the call of the UN with the "Blue Helmets" insigna or if the borders of an EU-member country aren't directly menaced from the attack of a foreign country

Which translated through the De-Garbler came out to something like this:

"I would only act- and only defensively at that- with permission from unelected grandees and mandarins in the corrupt and perfidious UN. And if you're not European, screw you!"

That explains why you never lift a finger to help Africans or anyone else outside the EU, and perhaps even why you whine and seethe so childishly when anyone else attempts to do so, but it doesn't explain why you all sat so silently while your fellow enlightened, nuanced Europeans butchered each other in your very backyard.

Here's my pet theory about Europeans...

As a continent which keeps chosing socialists to run your countries (into the ground), your rhetoric revolves around the need to eliminate class distinctions, religious differences, income disparities, and any other identity other than "European-ness". The reason for this is abundantly clear- when all other identifying distinctions are gone, there will only be one thing left...the thing which you crave most, and have historically shown yourselves to be utterly and completely lost without:

The State.

Someone has to care for you...you have abdicated your sense of selves, and your sense of self-preservation along with it. You need someone- anyone, and that includes Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Milosevic, and a host of others, rather than be free. The State will clothe, feed, educate, insure, regulate, tax, and ultimately own you.

One of the things they won't allow you is to defend yourselves. That instinct has been bred out of you for generations, so naturally you are repelled by anyone who has not been so conditioned.

Perhaps as an excercise, you could point out where the deployment of UN "troops" has saved anyone's life. Maybe you could find one where they weren't molesting children, or watching the people they were charged with protecting as they were being packed off to the concentration camps.

Heckuva Job, Kofi!

PS- if you feel so safe from Iran's arsenal, you need to Google the term "Shahab 3", and then maybe Taepo Dong 3.

Heh.

N00b.

Last edited by Bacon Guy : 04-24-2006 at 03:46 AM.
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  #30  
Old 04-23-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
So plenty of people hold that view (in your estimation), so you can try and tar me with it? No deal, and you owe me an apology. Way to backpedal.

Fine. Here's an apology for that, although what you're suggesting isn't that far from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
Neither have I called anyone brainwashed (that's another nice case of projection), nor have I said anything about "unequivocally", or "24/7".

Semantics. You're beating around the bush - "They believe in Islam, hence they believe in the death of the US!". That seems to summarize what you're saying. What's the difference between that, and stating they're brainwashed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
Obviously, though, I have a much deeper understanding of Islam, and the pathology of contemporary Muslim thought...after all, I'm the one who's read The Big Three, Qutb, and a number of other contemporary and historical Islamic tracts.

And this lends more credence to the above. "This is what their religion says - hence this is what they believe!". Brainwashing. Doing what a text and a person tell you to do.

Are you willing to apply that standard to all religions? And I'm not stating that Islam is equal to Christianity, since all religions are crap, in my eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
I'll assume- based on your arguments- that you have not. One need not even do these things- simply listen to your average Muslim inhabitant of the Mideast, and they'll fill your ears with all manner of religious and historical reference...you see, the average Arab- regardless of education- has a much finer knowledge of his history than most westerners do of their own, so many of their references are lost on those of us unfamiliar with their history and literature.

Yes, they are a very history driven people. This supports what I'm stating, in a fashion - our (relatively) recent yet past transgressions provide fuel for the clerics' fires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
I can excuse that degree of ignorance on your part.

Fabulous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
You inadvertently reinforce my contention that you infantilize them when you say: You have simply removed any motivation of their own...the poor Muslims are just reacting to mean westerners (nevermind that the USSR wasn't part of the West), rabble-rousing preachers, and whatever "culture clash" is. No culturally-ingrained ideals inform on their behavior...of course not! Perish the thought! Nothing to see here! We're all the same inside! Islam means "peace"!

Did I not say earlier that the US isn't to blame for all of Iran's problems, in spite of what we did? And here's the difference in what we're arguing: I'm stating that they have at least one valid reason to view and hate us the way they do. You're stating that it's innate, because of their religion. Of course their religion plays a factor - it's a very zealous religion. But it's not the only factor which, near as I can interpret your point, you seem to think it is.

And I'd argue that the USSR did represent the West, just as much as the US, UK, and Europe do. Just because they were east of NATO does not mean they were Middle or Far East.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
And you mouth these silly platitudes in spite of what we actually know of Islamic terrorists- that they are not the poor and disposessed.

Here's the split, and perhaps the root of our differences - you're focusing on terrorists, I'm focusing on the Iranian populace as a whole.

Anyhow, I never said anything about poor and disposessed Iranians. I made a comment about the reasons Iranians of differing educational levels would hate us, or go along with the party line at least. The economics of the situation are inconsequential, unless you're possibly talking about terrorism. I wasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
Your misapprehension seems to imply that if they were, then giving them all new homes and nice cars like Shazad Tanweer had would make the problem go away. It doesn't.The Kennedy School of Harvard tells us this again and again in its study of the demography of terrorists. Google it yourself.

But I'm not talking about terrorists. Matter of fact, I haven't talked about them at all. We seem to be on different pages about the thread subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
You are imposing your wishful westerner's ideals on them when you assume that the dumb, poor ones are the Islamofascists. You couldn't be any further from correct. It is the exact opposite...the terrorists are the very cream of Muslim society.

I'd believe it, since a terrorism cell can't operate very well unless its members are of good caliber. But once again, we aren't talking about terrorism. We're talking about the Iranian people, Iran's nuclear ambitions, and the history and ramifications of it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
However, when you say we made it possible for them to flourish, you have no idea how right you are- but you also must be aware that it was under the eyes of other believers in the ridiculous "there are varying degrees of practice, just like in Judaism and Christianity" inanity you put forth- Dhimmi Khadr and his fellow transnationalist idiotopians at the UN- that Islamofascism was allowed to flourish. Perhaps the bombing they are so energetically courting would have been more judiciously applied in 1979.

OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
We could even blame France for allowing Khomeini to board that flight without being snugly ensconced in a casket.

The Shah lame-ducked out of Iran when there was a threat to him (opening up the possibility of a power grab), and the military didn't back him up. If Khomeini did nothing to make France want to execute him, that isn't France's fault.

Why are you shuffling the responsibilities of the Iranians onto France ?
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