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  #11  
Old 06-28-2006
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Default You are right about Stalin.

In fact, what is generally said about Soviet Union is that "the bad luck of that Country consisted in the fact that Lenin died too soon and Stalin died too late".

I have a friend in what's now called Belarus, who comes in Italy to visit me every summer; and I can tell you that down there, everything that was named after, or titled to, Stalin, has disappeared or has been re-named; but what was named after, or titled to, Lenin, is still there untouched.
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  #12  
Old 06-28-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
In fact, what is generally said about Soviet Union is that "the bad luck of that Country consisted in the fact that Lenin died too soon and Stalin died too late".

I have a friend in what's now called Belarus, who comes in Italy to visit me every summer; and I can tell you that down there, everything that was named after, or titled to, Stalin, has disappeared or has been re-named; but what was named after, or titled to, Lenin, is still there untouched.


It was called De Stalinisation. He was almost deleted from history. Anything to do with him, statues, photos, etc was obliterated. While Lenin and Trotsky are still considered national heros.
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  #13  
Old 06-28-2006
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You mix it up when you at one hand stick to a common idea of what constitutes "Socialism" and on the other use the it as a Label (like in stalin was a facist). When JCoyote states that "the only common denominator is state direction of the economy" he makes a logical error in closure. Yes this could be a very crude description to what constitutes "Socialism" but that doesnt make it true that all policies in which the state controls the economy equals Socialism. Then the idea of the national-state (and all forms within) is Socialism, the only one who would escape such a broad concept would be radical forms of anarchy and super-liberalism. If that is Socialism the concept become so broad that all people in power that controlled a territory and collected tax would be socialist. Socialism must be narrowed down a bit to be a usefull concept and first then you could see if national-socialism and Hitler could be called socialistic.

(Wikipedia)

Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to social control. [1] As an economic system, socialism is usually associated with state or collective ownership of the means of production. This control, according to socialists, may be either direct, exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils, or it may be indirect, exercised on behalf of the people by the state.

Nazism combines racism, German nationalism, anti-Semitism and anti-communism. The Nazis believed in the superiority of an Aryan master race, advocated individual leadership in a strong, centralized government, and claimed to be defending Germany and the entire Western world against communism and Jewish subversion.

I think for likeness the strong centralized state is the most common denominator. But all things considered i think one easily could be tricked by the word itself national-socialism, actually Hitler and NSDAP mostly mirrored socialism in a directly opposed stance in most cases. Nazism was also inspired by Social-Darwinism (which isnt related to socialism).
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  #14  
Old 06-28-2006
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Default Hitler was a left winger

Communism and National socailism are about the same the only real differance is under National Socailism you were allowed some private property rights.In both case's the Government controls every aspect of your life.Why anyone would opt for that, baffles the fuck out of me..
I'm capable of supporting Family and I don't require any govermental assistance whatsoever.Anytime government gets involved anything they fuck it all up.Government that governs best Governs least.
I forget who said that..
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  #15  
Old 06-28-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCoyote
Good ones Dolphin. Simon Kenton would be fun to put in a cage match with Rasputin.

And Lewis Wetzel I definitely have to put on the bad list; he was pretty obviously a sociopath. Killing people under flags of truce is a good way of getting on the evil list. He fits a lot of what I would say about mass murdering fuckheads in general... in many cases they were sociopathic, using whatever accepted racism and conflict as a socially acceptable outlet for murderous tendencies. While racism is a societal problem, genocide is often a bunch of otherwise monstrous people taking advantage of some societies' willingness to look away depending on who the victims are.
Ahh now come on,If Indains had killed a bunch of your family members you'd be doing the same thing,Lets not forget the Indains perchant for Torture
Burning at the stake is about the most horrible way a human can die. They were known to make it last 3 days.That and raiding remote cabins and smashing babys skulls open against tree's would pretty much put me in a genocidal mindset, proably for the rest of my life! I know i'd be doing the same kinda thing!
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  #16  
Old 06-28-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolphin_Shooter
Ahh now come on,If Indains had killed a bunch of your family members you'd be doing the same thing,Lets not forget the Indains perchant for Torture
Burning at the stake is about the most horrible way a human can die. They were known to make it last 3 days.That and raiding remote cabins and smashing babys skulls open against tree's would pretty much put me in a genocidal mindset, proably for the rest of my life! I know i'd be doing the same kinda thing!
Yes BUT, lots of people had that kind of thing happen to their families. Lots of indians had plenty of horrors unleashed on them as well. But Lewis went well beyond any reason or humanity in what he did, and note that it said even people who supported what he did became uncomfortable around him as time went on.

That, and the killing people under flag of truce. While I don't really count long term unanticipated outcomes of ones actions as a deciding factor in being good or bad, one does have to wonder how much history might have changed had this guy not gone around killing diplomats for shits and giggles.

No, I don't think every settler who mixed it up with the natives was evil or something. There was an honest conflict going on at the time. But just because you are on a side in some cases judged "good" by history or locals doesn't allow someone to get away with anything. Like Vlad Tepes. The man killed tens of thousands of his own people. Many think of him as a hero in Romania to this day. But he did what he did partly by convincing his enemy how psychotic he was... by killing lots of his own people. Killing 1 in 5 of your citizens to prove you'll do anything to an enemy? Locking the destitute in a building and burning it down to take care of the "poverty problem"? These aren't things good people do... Winning by outpacing your enemy's ability to commit evil doesn't make someone good.

-Also note, getting killed by evil people doesn't automatically make you good either.-
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  #17  
Old 06-29-2006
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Question Dolphin, are you okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolphin_Shooter
Hitler was a left-winger

You're kidding, right?



No, seriously. Do you have had some bad fever attack lately?

Or aren't you a little bit ?

In this case get back to the forum when you'll be off the influence and THINK DEEPLY about your post before RADICALLY EDITING IT.
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  #18  
Old 06-29-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
You're kidding, right?



No, seriously. Do you have had some bad fever attack lately?

Or aren't you a little bit ?

In this case get back to the forum when you'll be off the influence and THINK DEEPLY about your post before RADICALLY EDITING IT.

LOL true. You can't really call Hitler a left winger.

However, just as funny was you calling the Nazi's BOURGEOIS. A political movement founded upon disenfranchised veteran ENLISTED military troops sure doesn't count as that in any book I've read. It was a proletarian movement, made up of down-and-out from across German society and military veterans. They simply had strong "conservative" beliefs as well as some somewhat "socialist" goals mixed in. There was hardly any upper class support for the Nazis at all... initially. After they gained some notoriety they had some support, but then again even in normal socialist movements that happens to a degree. But saying the Nazis were an upper class movement is certainly using highly selective memory.
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