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  #11  
Old 07-27-2006
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Thumbs up Wow!

You all are better than any form of mass information

CNN should learn from this board.

TJ could make a re-routing for the present matter that should be moved to politics discussion (but it's just a little detail).

Anyway, I love it. Keep feeding my ignorancy. You guys have my attention and my respect (no matter where you come from or what your believes are).


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  #12  
Old 07-27-2006
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Originally Posted by CeeTee
You all are better than any form of mass information

CNN should learn from this board.

TJ could make a re-routing for the present matter that should be moved to politics discussion (but it's just a little detail).

Anyway, I love it. Keep feeding my ignorancy. You guys have my attention and my respect (no matter where you come from or what your believes are).

I suppose we should all thank you.
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  #13  
Old 07-27-2006
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Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
No, there are many other, new members, eastern-Europe countries which are either still too much tied to Russia or desperately trying to enter the EU. One way or another, one word from Bruzelles or Moscow, and USA and Israel are left alone.

So Canada and Britain are tied too much to Russia? That's probably news to them.

And Turkey, while no friend of Israel, has much interest in keeping this situation under control. And being mostly muslims themselves, it would help make peacekeeping efforts easier.


But all of this is really moot since we can do without NATO help if we need to.


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They artillery-bombed the place for hours before the IAF airstrike.

The artillery was targeting something nearby [read: The Hezbollah camp right next door, as mentioned in UN reports just hours before this incident] , not the outpost itself. If just a single IDF 155mm battery had been trying to hit the outpost for ten hours, there would have been no need for an airstrike.

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They have the Israeli, Lebanese, Syrian and American radio frequences to get in touch if necessary,

Which ones? The Israeli Tac-band? Which of those? Alef Bet or Gimel? Or the strategic net?

You still seem to miss my point, and it's one that the United States learned in WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm. The fact is different parts of almost any advanced military use different communications systems. The Infantry uses one, the airforce uses another, and the navy yet another. Getting them all on the same page can take quite a while. That is what caused most of the friendly fire in Desert Storm.

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and them all know English.

All of who? The bluehelmets? Of course those idiots speak English. It's the IDF who speaks a different language, and that would be Ivrit [or as you would call it, Hebrew]. While 70% of Israelis speak English, a majority of the active duty IDF front-line units are Israeli immigrants serving their military terms. Most of them speak Russian or Ukrainian and Ivrit, not English.

That's a simple fact, now how is it hard to understand that they and the bluehelmets had a hard time communicating?


And for some reason this comes to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrYRY...0Coast%20Guard

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Don't clutch at straws.

It is you that is clutching at straws by claiming the IDF and Bluehelmets speak the same language.

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The minimum they can do, since THEY wounded him.

And who treated all the members of UNIFIL wounded by Hezbollah?

Get back to me when you've figure that out.

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Maybe if the USA wouldn't have vetoed at the UN Security Council to autorize the UN observers to the use of force to defend themselves, maybe they would have done it?

And how is that Israels fault again?

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I repeat, if somebody bombs us from Albania, we get our jet fighters on air and bomb HIM, we don't blow up entire Albania unless it's Albania itself officially waging war to us.

And I repeat that you're saying this from deep inside a European bubble where you haven't faced reality in fifty years.

And there is a lot of Italian history you're choosing to forget, I won't even mention Rome or WWII. I'll start much more recent than that: Operation Restore Hope ring any bells? The torture of Somalian civilians, the rape of Somalia women, the killing of Somali children. All done by Italian 'peacekeepers'... Nice job keeping the peace there .

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Not that I had expected anything else from somebody who supports what has so far stopped being a justified and reasonable "police" and defense operation and has become an outright and unlegitimate attack to a sovereign Country that has no control nor ties with the terrorist group that should be the target of the ops. Hence why I am outta this thread.

How many Lebanese women have been raped by Israelis in this war?

How many Lebanese children have been electronically tortured by Israelis?

How many underage Lebanese prostitution rings have been run by the Israelis?


Oh, you mean those things were done by Italians against Somalians who had never done anything to Italy?

And then you proceed to try the "Holier Than Thou" approach to debate?

Pardon me while I don't give a shit about your self-proclaimed moral authority.
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  #14  
Old 07-27-2006
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Thumbs up Thanks TJ for moving this to the pollotick section.

Let's come to the "serious" stuff, now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
So Canada and Britain are tied too much to Russia? That's probably news to them.
And Turkey, while no friend of Israel, has much interest in keeping this situation under control. And being mostly muslims themselves, it would help make peacekeeping efforts easier.

I was talking to the EASTERN-EUROPE Countries, bozo.
And, what about Canada, you are now calling them for help after saying something about "we don't need a buncha Mounties" when they wanted to send small contingents in Afghanistan?
This doesn't means that Canada and UK are sending troops, anyway. Wait and see.
And besides, I would not want Turkish troops so close to Israel; the muslim integrists and clerics are A LOT, and VERY POWERFUL, between the Government apparatus, the Armed Forces and the Security and Intelligence Services in Turkey. They might double-cross NATO and help the Hezzies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
But all of this is really moot since we can do without NATO help if we need to.

Again, I wouldn't bet my ass on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
The artillery was targeting something nearby [read: The Hezbollah camp right next door, as mentioned in UN reports just hours before this incident] , not the outpost itself. If just a single IDF 155mm battery had been trying to hit the outpost for ten hours, there would have been no need for an airstrike.

However, something -HAS- to be gone wrong, since even the IDF has decided to open an investigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
Which ones? The Israeli Tac-band? Which of those? Alef Bet or Gimel? Or the strategic net?
You still seem to miss my point, and it's one that the United States learned in WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm. The fact is different parts of almost any advanced military use different communications systems. The Infantry uses one, the airforce uses another, and the navy yet another. Getting them all on the same page can take quite a while. That is what caused most of the friendly fire in Desert Storm.
All of who? The bluehelmets? Of course those idiots speak English. It's the IDF who speaks a different language, and that would be Ivrit [or as you would call it, Hebrew]. While 70% of Israelis speak English, a majority of the active duty IDF front-line units are Israeli immigrants serving their military terms. Most of them speak Russian or Ukrainian and Ivrit, not English.
That's a simple fact, now how is it hard to understand that they and the bluehelmets had a hard time communicating?
And for some reason this comes to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrYRY...0Coast%20Guard
It is you that is clutching at straws by claiming the IDF and Bluehelmets speak the same language.
And who treated all the members of UNIFIL wounded by Hezbollah?
Get back to me when you've figure that out.
And how is that Israels fault again?

HAHA. Buncha good ones. No, really. The IDF, mostly trained by Americans, who don't speak English. And the UNFIL who doesn't has ALL the IDF radio frequences. HAHA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
And I repeat that you're saying this from deep inside a European bubble where you haven't faced reality in fifty years.

If "truth" is what Israelis liveevery day, we are more than happy to live out of truth. We have faced two world wars in in three decades and we have had enough for the rest of the existence of the Human Kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
And there is a lot of Italian history you're choosing to forget, I won't even mention Rome or WWII. I'll start much more recent than that: Operation Restore Hope ring any bells? The torture of Somalian civilians, the rape of Somalia women, the killing of Somali children. All done by Italian 'peacekeepers'... Nice job keeping the peace there .

Error. I am Communist right BECAUSE I KNOW what my Country has done in World War 2. If this can reassure you, my Comrades from the Resistance have found out and hung many of those responsibles immediately before or after the end of the war.

And besides, what Rome has done so bad? OKAY, I know WHAT it has done so bad. But Rome has fallen about 2000 years ago. Isn't that a little long time to keep rancor?

Not to mention that the motherfucker Italian soldiers who committed those atrocities in Somalia during Restore Hope are currently serving LONG times in the Italian jails (which are NOT exactly the Grand Hotel as the American prisons seem to be on TV, being mostly situated in very big, very old buildings, as an example the jail in my town is a 1700 building, VERY cold on winter, VERY hot on summer. Even one single day in jail in certain Italian prisons is enough).

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
How many Lebanese women have been raped by Israelis in this war?
How many Lebanese children have been electronically tortured by Israelis?
How many underage Lebanese prostitution rings have been run by the Israelis?

Who knows. Let's wait and see the end of the war how many, if any, of these episodes happened during this war. The innocents civilians women and children killed by IAF airstrikes are still enough to me, anyway. And -DON'T- tell me about "unavoidable collateral damages", because THERE IS a way to avoid them: DON'T BOMB CIVILIAN TARGETS, even when this means letting an high-profile Hezbollah military chief live another day.

And besides, what about during the latest UN peacekeeping operation in Lebanon, with the MOSSAD giving false informations to the Italian troops so that they would turn away from the refugee camps of SABRA AND CHATILA they were watching, and thus leaving the Maronite-Christian militians, armed and supported by Israel, ender and slaughter the Palestinians by the hundreds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
Oh, you mean those things were done by Italians against Somalians who had never done anything to Italy?

If you want to talk to those SOBs, I can fix you an appointment, but mind, they are scattered here and there in the worst Italian penitentiaries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
And then you proceed to try the "Holier Than Thou" approach to debate?
Pardon me while I don't give a shit about your self-proclaimed moral authority.

You are pardoned. I am not "Holier than you", not at all. I don't believe in "Holiness". And I don't even want, or expect, to pretend a "moral authority" which I know much better than you that I DON'T HAVE.
I just consider myself a reasonable man. While the Israeli military commanders seem not to be, and they won't become until they will understand that their primary target must NOT be the "elimination of the threat" but the SAFEGUARD OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATIONS IN THE AREA OF OPERATIONS. That's how it goes, that's how I see it. If it was a "real" war (officially declared, and fought by the REGULAR troops of two Countries with legitimate governments giving order behind each Army), I could understand. But this is like Iraq, like Afghanistan: "war on terror", or, like a character of Michael Moore's "Canadian Bacon" said: "Buncha raghead guys driving around blowing up rent-a-cars". You can NOT fight them as you would fight a "standard" enemy, otherwise you are bound to loose. And you can NOT "give a shit" about the civilians you harm, because every survivor of a family exterminated for a "collateral damage" today will become tomorrow a new recruit for your ENEMIES. Understand?

Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 07-27-2006 at 02:36 PM.
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  #15  
Old 07-27-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
I was talking to the EASTERN-EUROPE Countries, bozo.
And, what about Canada, you are now calling them for help after saying something about "we don't need a buncha Mounties" when they wanted to send small contingents in Afghanistan?

When have I called for their help? If you'll read the rest of the post I said we do not need them.

The only catch is if Israel runs its own buffer-zone you Europeans will bitch and moan, we're only trying to accommodate you.

Then again if NATO runs the buffer zone, you're still going to bitch and moan, so I guess there's really no point in trying to please you.


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This doesn't means that Canada and UK are sending troops, anyway. Wait and see.

Doesn't mean they aren't, either.

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And besides, I would not want Turkish troops so close to Israel; the muslim integrists and clerics are A LOT, and VERY POWERFUL, between the Government apparatus, the Armed Forces and the Security and Intelligence Services in Turkey. They might double-cross NATO and help the Hezzies.

As opposed to the UN helping the Hezzies?

How is this a change again?

Oh yeah... A Turkish double cross would be against NATO [which you actually care about], while the past UN double crosses were against Israel [which I guess makes it a good thing, somehow].


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Again, I wouldn't bet my ass on it.

This from the man who was sure the United States was going to be forced out of Iraq.


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However, something -HAS- to be gone wrong, since even the IDF has decided to open an investigation.

Of COURSE something went wrong. Friendly fire is, by definition, something going wrong. How hard is that to wrap your head around?

You ALWAYS open an investigation after a friendly fire incident. Research the friendly fire accidents in Desert Storm, Bosnia and Afghanistan. Research the friendly fire accidents in 1967 and 1973. All of them resulted in investigations.



The United States has a history of blowing up British APCs and Canadian soldiers with airstrikes and missiles. Again, have a look at Desert Storm and Operation Enduring Freedom. They all had investigations, in no way does that mean it was not an accident.


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HAHA. Buncha good ones. No, really. The IDF, mostly trained by Americans, who don't speak English.

The IDF is not trained by Americans, they're trained in Israel, by Israelis.

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And the UNFIL who doesn't has ALL the IDF radio frequences. HAHA.

It isn't just frequencies, it's also format.

Must I really show the cases of United States army units coming under friendly fire from United States military assets and not being able to do anything about it? Oh hell, I'll do it anyway:


B BATTERY, 3/82 FIELD ARTY, JULY, 1972
Battery accidently fired upon a NDP of US Infantry, killing three soldiers immediately and wounding at least 10 others.

CO. A 1/327, 101ST AIRBORNE, DECEMBER 24, 1970
Artillery misdirected, High Explosive artillery rounds hit NDP of 2nd platoon, killing 12 and leaving the remaining members of the platoon in the jungle all night without support until the next day.

A BATTERY, 8TH BATTALION 6TH ARTILLERY, JANUARY 13, 1967
Fired approximately 18 rounds that landed on A Company, 1st Battalion, 28th Infantry, 1st Infantry Division. Nine men were killed and more than 40 wounded.

Those are only artillery incidents in Vietnam, and there are more than a dozen more. Then there are air-to-ground friend fire incidents, of which there are more than a dozen.

And the United States military is designed to work together as a team, and trains together to avoid friendly fire.

Why is it so damn shocking when two groups who do not work as a team and do not train together having a similar incident?


Get back to me on that once you've figured out war isn't clean and pretty.


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If "truth" is what Israelis liveevery day, we are more than happy to live out of truth.

So screw the Israelis, reality doesn't effect you and thus it isn't your problem.

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We have caused two world wars in in three decades and we have had enough for the rest of the existence of the Human Kind.

Fixed it for you.

And the reason you no longer live that way is because the United States and Great Britain removed the cause, which was Nazi Germany and... oh yeah, Italy.

The cause of this war in the middle east is radical islam lead by Hezbollah and Hamas.

Until they are removed, this will not end.

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And besides, what Rome has done so bad? OKAY, I know WHAT it has done so bad. But Rome has fallen about 2000 years ago. Isn't that a little long time to keep rancor?

Somehow I expected an Italian to know that Rome was still around less than 1,500 years ago.

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Not to mention that the motherfucker Italian soldiers who committed those atrocities in Somalia during Restore Hope are currently serving LONG times in the Italian jails

So let me see if I understand this... Italian soldiers intentionally hurt civilians just for the sake of hurting civilians, but because Italy sends them to jail that makes all well. But when Israel inflects unintentional collateral damage while attempting to kill legitimate military targets, they become damned for it?

And would this be a good time to ask your opinions on Abu Grahib?


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Who knows. Let's wait and see the end of the war how many, if any, of these episodes happened during this war.
If you can find any documented cases of the IDF doing those three things by the time this war is over, I'll eat my hat without any soy sauce.

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The innocents civilians women and children killed by IAF airstrikes are still enough to me, anyway. And -DON'T- tell me about "unavoidable collateral damages", because THERE IS a way to avoid them: DON'T BOMB CIVILIAN TARGETS, even when this means letting an high-profile Hezbollah military chief live another day.

During WWII, over 370,000 civilians killed in collateral damage during attempts by the allies to eliminate the war abilities of the Axis.

If we had applied your standards of "Don't bomb anything if there's a risk of civilian losses" to WWII, you'd still be living the Third Reich... Assuming someone else on this board hadn't yet killed you on a battlefield in North Africa.

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And besides, what about during the latest UN peacekeeping operation in Lebanon, with the MOSSAD giving false informations to the Italian troops so that they would turn away from the refugee camps of SABRA AND CHATILA they were watching, and thus leaving the Maronite-Christian militians, armed and supported by Israel, ender and slaughter the Palestinians by the hundreds?

First off there were no Italian troops involved in Sabra and Shatila, nor was any information given to them by Mossad. At that time the area of Lebanon in question was not watched or patrolled by UNIFIL.

Second the massacre was committed by a phalangist militia, not Israel. The militia was armed and supplied by Israel for the same reason the Soviet Union was armed and supplied by the United States in WWII, a mutual enemy [the PLO militias], not common intent. Was the United States responsible for the Soviet Unions atrocities in WWII, by this standard?

Third it should be pointed out that PLO Militias had previously committed several identical massacres, do you hold damnation on them as well, or are the phalangists somehow the only people capable of evil?

And lastly it should be pointed out that this massacre was directly commanded and lead by Elie Hobeika, who became a Lebanese government minister after the Lebanese civil war ended. Yet you seem to hold that the Lebanese government are a bunch of choir boys who have never hurt a fly.

Odd that you damn Israel for Sabra and Shatila for arming the militias but yet you let Lebanon off the hook when it has people who committed the actual act leading their nation.

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If you want to talk to those SOBs, I can fix you an appointment, but mind, they are scattered here and there in the worst Italian penitentiaries.

And you still hold Italy blameless when their men intentionally hurt and kill civilians, yet damn Israel for unintentional collateral damage?


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I just consider myself a reasonable man. While the Israeli military commanders seem not to be, and they won't become until they will understand that their primary target must NOT be the "elimination of the threat" but the SAFEGUARD OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATIONS IN THE AREA OF OPERATIONS.

Apply that standard to WWII and the Allies could not have won.

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That's how it goes, that's how I see it. If it was a "real" war (officially declared, and fought by the REGULAR troops of two Countries with legitimate governments giving order behind each Army),

For all practical purposes the Hezbollah militia are the closest thing to a regular army that is ever going to be faced.

And a legitimate government is what you want it to be. Some could say the United States isn't a legitimate nation, just a rebellious British colony. What makes a group 'legitimate' is the power they have, and Hezbollah has more than the 'legitimate' government of Lebanon itself [as you yourself admit!]. That makes them a legitimate military target.

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I could understand. But this is like Iraq, like Afghanistan: "war on terror",

So Afghanistan wasn't a "real" war?

News to me.

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or, like a character of Michael Moore's "Canadian Bacon" said:

Couldn't you have picked a better source to back your debate?

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"Buncha raghead guys driving around blowing up rent-a-cars". You can NOT fight them as you would fight a "standard" enemy, otherwise you are bound to loose.

You obviously know nothing about Hezbollah, their 'militia' is better armed and organized than that of many 'legitimate' nations. They aren't just committing suicide bombings, they are a real military force that must be dealt with as such. Must I post videos proving this?


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And you can NOT "give a shit" about the civilians you harm,

We do "give a shit" about civilians, that's why we aren't carpet bombing whole cities [like the allies did] and tossing nuclear weapons around. If we didn't give a shit the Lebanese deaths would already be in the 100,000 range.

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because every survivor of a family exterminated for a "collateral damage" today will become tomorrow a new recruit for your ENEMIES. Understand?


That's what you said about Iraq, and it's getting better there, not worse.

Please deposit a clue and play again.

Last edited by UZI4U : 07-27-2006 at 09:58 PM.
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  #16  
Old 07-27-2006
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Arrow Please...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
You obviously know nothing about Hezbollah, their 'militia' is better armed and organized than that of many 'legitimate' nations. They aren't just committing suicide bombings, they are a real military force that must be dealt with as such. Must I post videos proving this?

I know really nothing about these guys and would appreciate the videos very much indeed. If is not too much trouble 4 u...

tks
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  #17  
Old 07-27-2006
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Thumbs up Thanks TJ to keep it all in order

Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeTee

TJ could make a re-routing for the present matter that should be moved to politics discussion (but it's just a little detail).


seriously very efficient

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  #18  
Old 07-28-2006
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Originally Posted by UZI4U
When have I called for their help? If you'll read the rest of the post I said we do not need them.
The only catch is if Israel runs its own buffer-zone you Europeans will bitch and moan, we're only trying to accommodate you.
Then again if NATO runs the buffer zone, you're still going to bitch and moan, so I guess there's really no point in trying to please you.
Doesn't mean they aren't, either.

I still say: wait and see, it won't be NATO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
As opposed to the UN helping the Hezzies?
How is this a change again?
Oh yeah... A Turkish double cross would be against NATO [which you actually care about], while the past UN double crosses were against Israel [which I guess makes it a good thing, somehow].

UN helping Hezbollah? News to me. Paranoia for any reasonable man around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
This from the man who was sure the United States was going to be forced out of Iraq [...] That's what you said about Iraq, and it's getting better there, not worse.

I DON'T THINK SO. It's getting WORSE every day, people gets killed by the HUNDREDS daily, and if you are so blind to keep on NOT seeing it, well, it's useless that we talk about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
Of COURSE something went wrong. Friendly fire is, by definition, something going wrong. How hard is that to wrap your head around?
You ALWAYS open an investigation after a friendly fire incident. Research the friendly fire accidents in Desert Storm, Bosnia and Afghanistan. Research the friendly fire accidents in 1967 and 1973. All of them resulted in investigations.
The United States has a history of blowing up British APCs and Canadian soldiers with airstrikes and missiles. Again, have a look at Desert Storm and Operation Enduring Freedom. They all had investigations, in no way does that mean it was not an accident.
[...]
It isn't just frequencies, it's also format.
Must I really show the cases of United States army units coming under friendly fire from United States military assets and not being able to do anything about it? Oh hell, I'll do it anyway:
B BATTERY, 3/82 FIELD ARTY, JULY, 1972
Battery accidently fired upon a NDP of US Infantry, killing three soldiers immediately and wounding at least 10 others.
CO. A 1/327, 101ST AIRBORNE, DECEMBER 24, 1970
Artillery misdirected, High Explosive artillery rounds hit NDP of 2nd platoon, killing 12 and leaving the remaining members of the platoon in the jungle all night without support until the next day.
A BATTERY, 8TH BATTALION 6TH ARTILLERY, JANUARY 13, 1967
Fired approximately 18 rounds that landed on A Company, 1st Battalion, 28th Infantry, 1st Infantry Division. Nine men were killed and more than 40 wounded.
Those are only artillery incidents in Vietnam, and there are more than a dozen more. Then there are air-to-ground friend fire incidents, of which there are more than a dozen.
And the United States military is designed to work together as a team, and trains together to avoid friendly fire.
Why is it so damn shocking when two groups who do not work as a team and do not train together having a similar incident?


Roger that. I still say that UN and IDF were in contact; this has been confirmed by other surviving observers. During the entire artillery-bombing of the area, they -DID- communicated with the IDF several times and RECEIVED ANSWERS. How fucking moronic a soldier can be not passing the information to his higher-in-rank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
The IDF is not trained by Americans, they're trained in Israel, by Israelis.

Roger that. Still all of them speak English better than you and me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
Get back to me on that once you've figured out war isn't clean and pretty.

That's why:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Italian Constitution, Article 11
Italy rejects war as an instrument of aggression against the freedom of other peoples and as a means for the settlement of international disputes. Italy agrees, on conditions of equality with other States, to the limitations of sovereignty that may be necessary to a world order ensuring peace and justice among the Nations. Italy promotes and encourages international organisations having such ends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
And the reason you no longer live that way is because the United States and Great Britain removed the cause, which was Nazi Germany and... oh yeah, Italy.

I will reveal you a little secret: people in Europe is sick tired of having American military bases and be tied to an "alliance" with America for something happened 60 years ago. People tends to have short memory, here, and I strongly disagree with them; nonetheless, I understand people living close to American military bases when they say that "It's time the Yanks go home, now".

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
The cause of this war in the middle east is radical islam lead by Hezbollah and Hamas.
Until they are removed, this will not end.


Points of view. A poll research that took place in Europe some months ago established that the European citizens consider ISRAEL and the USA as respectively the #1 and #2 menaches to the world peace currently. I disagree with them. But, again, let me rephrase: a matter of points of view.
Nonetheless, I am ALL for Hamas and Hezbollah being removed, or at least turned only in legitimate political movements. As long, wait, as you don't hit 100 to kill 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
Somehow I expected an Italian to know that Rome was still around less than 1,500 years ago.

I DO. I just didn't expected many AMERICANS to know it for so sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
So let me see if I understand this... Italian soldiers intentionally hurt civilians just for the sake of hurting civilians, but because Italy sends them to jail that makes all well. But when Israel inflects unintentional collateral damage while attempting to kill legitimate military targets, they become damned for it?

No, at least if they punish who was wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
And would this be a good time to ask your opinions on Abu Grahib?

Crime against mankind.

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Originally Posted by UZI4U
If you can find any documented cases of the IDF doing those three things by the time this war is over, I'll eat my hat without any soy sauce.

Watch out, here in Italy in these months we have an idiot TV advertisement campaign on mobile phones, featuring this idiot policeman who keeps on saying "If it's true, I'll offer a drink to the entire Rome", or "I'll get back home by swimming", or "I'll get shot away by the cannon of the Gianicolo hill...". He doesn't ends up very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
During WWII, over 370,000 civilians killed in collateral damage during attempts by the allies to eliminate the war abilities of the Axis.
If we had applied your standards of "Don't bomb anything if there's a risk of civilian losses" to WWII, you'd still be living the Third Reich... Assuming someone else on this board hadn't yet killed you on a battlefield in North Africa.

Okay, now, once for all: FORGET "STANDARDS". There is no such thing as a "standard" on military operation. Each one has its different standards. One thing that was right to do in one war might be wrong in another. And besides, 60 years have passed since WW-2. Things changed, and the military way-to-do and technologies too. Carpet-bombing are now an exclusively terroristic action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
First off there were no Italian troops involved in Sabra and Shatila, nor was any information given to them by Mossad. At that time the area of Lebanon in question was not watched or patrolled by UNIFIL.
Second the massacre was committed by a phalangist militia, not Israel. The militia was armed and supplied by Israel for the same reason the Soviet Union was armed and supplied by the United States in WWII, a mutual enemy [the PLO militias], not common intent. Was the United States responsible for the Soviet Unions atrocities in WWII, by this standard?
Third it should be pointed out that PLO Militias had previously committed several identical massacres, do you hold damnation on them as well, or are the phalangists somehow the only people capable of evil?
And lastly it should be pointed out that this massacre was directly commanded and lead by Elie Hobeika, who became a Lebanese government minister after the Lebanese civil war ended. Yet you seem to hold that the Lebanese government are a bunch of choir boys who have never hurt a fly.
Odd that you damn Israel for Sabra and Shatila for arming the militias but yet you let Lebanon off the hook when it has people who committed the actual act leading their nation.

Wrong. First of all, the Italian troops within the UN contingent were tasked to provide surveillance for that area, and were cheated by false MOSSAD informations (that's the official claims of the Italian military). Second, the phalangist militias were armed and encouraged by Israel to massacre as much refugees as possible so that they won't go back to Israel in the future.

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Originally Posted by UZI4U
And you still hold Italy blameless when their men intentionally hurt and kill civilians, yet damn Israel for unintentional collateral damage?

I am NOT holding Italy blameless. Those guilty are now in jail, or dead.

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Originally Posted by UZI4U
Apply that standard to WWII and the Allies could not have won.

Again: STANDARDS DON'T APPLY.

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Originally Posted by UZI4U
For all practical purposes the Hezbollah militia are the closest thing to a regular army that is ever going to be faced.
And a legitimate government is what you want it to be. Some could say the United States isn't a legitimate nation, just a rebellious British colony. What makes a group 'legitimate' is the power they have, and Hezbollah has more than the 'legitimate' government of Lebanon itself [as you yourself admit!]. That makes them a legitimate military target.
[...]
You obviously know nothing about Hezbollah, their 'militia' is better armed and organized than that of many 'legitimate' nations. They aren't just committing suicide bombings, they are a real military force that must be dealt with as such. Must I post videos proving this?

That's why the Lebanese government and Armed Forces can not get rid of them. But this is not a reason to retailate against Lebanese civilians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
So Afghanistan wasn't a "real" war? News to me.

No. It was just a damn mess. Too slow to get Bin Laden, people starts thinking that he was not taken yet because somebody down there (USA) does not WANTS Bin Laden to be captured, so he can be used as an excuse for more imperialistic wars in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
We do "give a shit" about civilians, that's why we aren't carpet bombing whole cities [like the allies did] and tossing nuclear weapons around. If we didn't give a shit the Lebanese deaths would already be in the 100,000 range.

Well, that's the minimum you can do. You'd be terrorists, otherwise.
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  #19  
Old 07-28-2006
CeeTee's Avatar
CeeTee CeeTee is offline
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Thumbs up Hezbollah videos

I don't care if you guys punch each other online, but take a break and show these Hezbollah training videos.
Please

../ct
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  #20  
Old 07-28-2006
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PT-The Italian Commie PT-The Italian Commie is offline
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Yeah, let's show us that "Islamic Special Forces" video of some time ago...
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