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  #21  
Old 07-28-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
I still say: wait and see, it won't be NATO.

It won't be the UN.



Quote:
UN helping Hezbollah? News to me. Paranoia for any reasonable man around.

The UN has been Hezbollahs third best ally, after Iran and Syria.



Are you still going to say that the UN hasn't been helping Hezbollah?

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I DON'T THINK SO. It's getting WORSE every day, people gets killed by the HUNDREDS daily, and if you are so blind to keep on NOT seeing it, well, it's useless that we talk about it.

Keep repeating that and maybe someday it will become truth.


Quote:
Roger that. I still say that UN and IDF were in contact; this has been confirmed by other surviving observers. During the entire artillery-bombing of the area, they -DID- communicated with the IDF several times and RECEIVED ANSWERS. How fucking moronic a soldier can be not passing the information to his higher-in-rank?

It always takes time for things to get up the chain of command during combat, anyone who has served in a real military will tell you that. This is especially true of things that are confusing or unexpected.

Quote:
Roger that. Still all of them speak English better than you and me.

Having lived there I can tell you there are a great many Israelis who do not speak English at all. Well over 15% speak only Russian or Ukrainian and Hebrew, not English. The Russian/Eastern European immigrants make up a majority of the active duty front line units.

Of the ones who do speak English most would not pass an American high-school English test, and those aren't difficult.




Quote:
I will reveal you a little secret: people in Europe is sick tired of having American military bases and be tied to an "alliance" with America for something happened 60 years ago. People tends to have short memory, here, and I strongly disagree with them; nonetheless, I understand people living close to American military bases when they say that "It's time the Yanks go home, now".

This has, exactly, what to do with what I said?

For all I care we might as well close down the bases we currently have in mainland Europe, they are a waste of resources in an area that doesn't need them.

The point I made is that without the actions of the United States [including a massive air campaign], Europe would still be a warzone.

Quote:
Points of view. A poll research that took place in Europe some months ago established that the European citizens consider ISRAEL and the USA as respectively the #1 and #2 menaches to the world peace currently. I disagree with them. But, again, let me rephrase: a matter of points of view.

You make a good point, Europe has a great history of being the biggest menace to world peace, so I guess they know one when they see one.


How are your weapons sales to China going, again?

Quote:
Nonetheless, I am ALL for Hamas and Hezbollah being removed, or at least turned only in legitimate political movements. As long, wait, as you don't hit 100 to kill 1.

And again if the United States has held that standard to Nazism and Imperial Japan, WWII wouldn't have ended... Or it would have ended with an Axis controlled world.

Quote:
Crime against mankind.



So let me see if I understand this... Italian soldiers kill civilians, torture children with electrical shock, and rape civilian women. But because those soldiers were sent to jail, Italy gets of scot free.

But when United States soldiers embarrass terrorists and put panties on their heads, and are then sent to jail by the United States as a result, it's still a crime against mankind?

Well, if standards are good, double standards are twice as good, I guess?

Quote:
Okay, now, once for all: FORGET "STANDARDS". There is no such thing as a "standard" on military operation. Each one has its different standards. One thing that was right to do in one war might be wrong in another.

In other words when it has to be done to save Europeans, it's the Right Thing™, but when it has to be done to save Jews, it's An Evil Crime Against Humanity™.

Interesting.

Quote:
And besides, 60 years have passed since WW-2. Things changed, and the military way-to-do and technologies too. Carpet-bombing are now an exclusively terroristic action.

Which is why Israel isn't carpet bombing anything. Every bomb used in this conflict has been a PGM.

Quote:
Wrong. First of all, the Italian troops within the UN contingent were tasked to provide surveillance for that area, and were cheated by false MOSSAD informations (that's the official claims of the Italian military).

The same Italian military that was sure there were WMDs in Iraq?

Careful, you're going to trip over your own arguments.

Quote:
Second, the phalangist militias were armed and encouraged by Israel to massacre as much refugees as possible so that they won't go back to Israel in the future.

Incorrect, the milita was armed and encouraged by the IDF to capture known Palistinian terrorists in the camps. Instead they decided to kill a bunch of people, and never lived up to their side of the deal. In case you didn't notice Israeli support for the Phalangists ended after that.

And have you every wondered why the Phalangists went of that rampage to start with?

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Again: STANDARDS DON'T APPLY WHEN THERE ARE JOOOOOS INVOLVED.

Fixed it for you.

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That's why the Lebanese government and Armed Forces can not get rid of them. But this is not a reason to retailate against Lebanese civilians.

We aren't retaliating against civilians, we're hitting Hezbollah targets hiding in cities, cities we warned weeks ago to evacuate.

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No. It was just a damn mess. Too slow to get Bin Laden, people starts thinking that he was not taken yet because somebody down there (USA) does not WANTS Bin Laden to be captured, so he can be used as an excuse for more imperialistic wars in the future.

And how would you have gone after Bin Laden faster? Nuclear carpet bombing of the Afghan/Pakistan border?

Quote:
Well, that's the minimum you can do. You'd be terrorists, otherwise.

Yet you call us terrorists anyway when we do refrain from those tactics, so why should we bother?
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  #22  
Old 07-28-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeTee
I don't care if you guys punch each other online, but take a break and show these Hezbollah training videos.
Please

../ct

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  #23  
Old 07-28-2006
D Yankee (The Zionist)'s Avatar
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Default Sounds good to me

"I will reveal you a little secret: people in Europe is sick tired of having American military bases and be tied to an "alliance" with America for something happened 60 years ago. People tends to have short memory, here, and I strongly disagree with them; nonetheless, I understand people living close to American military bases when they say that "It's time the Yanks go home, now".


I would be more than happy to bring our guys. Just don't call us when your neo fascist government strips you of every basic human right (again). And lines up all the communists and shoots them (again).
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  #24  
Old 07-28-2006
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PT-The Italian Commie PT-The Italian Commie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U


The Hezbollah are parts in conflict. Any negotiator would have to take contacts with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
Keep repeating that and maybe someday it will become truth.

No need to repeat it to make it become truth like Goebbels said. It -IS- truth already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
It always takes time for things to get up the chain of command during combat, anyone who has served in a real military will tell you that. This is especially true of things that are confusing or unexpected.

Does it takes MORE THAN 10 HOURS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
Having lived there I can tell you there are a great many Israelis who do not speak English at all. Well over 15% speak only Russian or Ukrainian and Hebrew, not English. The Russian/Eastern European immigrants make up a majority of the active duty front line units.
Of the ones who do speak English most would not pass an American high-school English test, and those aren't difficult.

This maybe means that Israel has to set up a serious program of improvement of the personal culture of its Military personnel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
For all I care we might as well close down the bases we currently have in mainland Europe, they are a waste of resources in an area that doesn't need them.

Close them and we will all be happy. There is A LOT of people in Europe, and I am between them, who thinks that Soviet nuclear missiles would NOT have been pointed against us all over the Cold War if it was not for the presence on the European soil of American base with either conventional and nuclear strike capabilities ready to attach the ComBloc area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
The point I made is that without the actions of the United States [including a massive air campaign], Europe would still be a warzone

Again, standards DON'T apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
You make a good point, Europe has a great history of being the biggest menace to world peace, so I guess they know one when they see one.

Clutching at straws again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
How are your weapons sales to China going, again?

Last time I checked, China manufactured and exporter worldwide more, and more technologically advanced, weaponries than the entire EU put toegether. And as far as it concerns weapons sales to China, weren't the AMERICAN CORPORATIONS that sold nuclear technology secrets to PRC during the Clinton administration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
And again if the United States has held that standard to Nazism and Imperial Japan, WWII wouldn't have ended... Or it would have ended with an Axis controlled world.

Turn on the engine of your DeLorean and speed it up to 88 MpH, man. You need to go BACK TO THE FUTURE, seems you're stuck in the past too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
So let me see if I understand this... Italian soldiers kill civilians, torture children with electrical shock, and rape civilian women. But because those soldiers were sent to jail, Italy gets of scot free.

At least, we punished our criminals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
But when United States soldiers embarrass terrorists and put panties on their heads, and are then sent to jail by the United States as a result, it's still a crime against mankind?

It was much more than embarrass. It was physical torture. They need to be punished, just like happened to the Italian soldiers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
Well, if standards are good, double standards are twice as good, I guess?

LITTLE DIFFERENCE: what that VERY STRICT MINORITY of Italian soldiers did in Somalia during "Restore Hope" was an independent criminal action, started only by them directly, by their will. What the American soldiers did was a PRECISE TACTIC, ordered by the CIA and the BUSH ADMINISTRATION, to extort informations to the prisoners: it was GOVERNMENTAL TORTURE, not isolated cases of crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
In other words when it has to be done to save Europeans, it's the Right Thing™, but when it has to be done to save Jews, it's An Evil Crime Against Humanity™.

It's YOU saying it. Not ME.

And besides, let me rephrase: DIFFERENT WARS, DIFFERENT TIMES, DIFFERENT RULES. Standards of World War 2 DO NOT and CAN NOT apply to the current situation in the Middle East.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
Which is why Israel isn't carpet bombing anything. Every bomb used in this conflict has been a PGM.

I see you understand it, at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
The same Italian military that was sure there were WMDs in Iraq?

NOT the ITALIAN MILITARY, but the FORMER ITALIAN GOVERNMENT, held by the motherfucking right wing and commanded by the polesmoker Silvio Berlusconi, very close friend of the USA and George Bush. This extreme vicinity with the American foreign policy, just in case you didn't noticed it, has had an enormous part in his ass-kicking out of office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
Incorrect, the milita was armed and encouraged by the IDF to capture known Palistinian terrorists in the camps. Instead they decided to kill a bunch of people, and never lived up to their side of the deal. In case you didn't notice Israeli support for the Phalangists ended after that.
And have you every wondered why the Phalangists went of that rampage to start with?

PLEASE. Give me a break. That's clutching at straws again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
"STANDARDS DON'T APPLY WHEN THERE ARE JOOOOOS INVOLVED". Fixed it for you.

Your people has been victim of a series of horrendous crimes, since the Middle Ages and up to the Holocaust.
But as a friend, UZI, I will swear on my honour, and might this be a revelation to you and to all the people of Israel: there is NOT a "Huge Anti-Zionist World Conspiracy" going on today. Nobody, except a bunch of idiots, has the wish to see you destroyed. Watching at Hezbollah and Hamas, it's okay. But blaming everybody of wishing the extermination of Jews, today, it's paranoia.
Besides, you know what REALLY pisses me off about Israel? That you can not criticise them. They do whatever they want in the region. They -HAVE- (don't dare to deny it, because it would be the BIGGEST LIE OF THE HISTORY!) imperialistic aims over Lebanon, the Trans-Jordan and the Sinai. They have undergone the Nazist tactics and as a result they have LEARNED them and now use them against the Palestinians and their neighbours in the Middle East.
But, if I criticise them, if I publicly admit that I don't like the way Israel does, well, I am an EVIL ANTI-SEMITE NAZIST.
Crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
We aren't retaliating against civilians, we're hitting Hezbollah targets hiding in cities, cities we warned weeks ago to evacuate.

Smart move, Izzies. And this should be enough to keep your consciences clean? Did you REALLY thought that the civilians, poor as most of them are, would have escaped from the cities leaving behind their homes and basically everything they had? Let me tell you what would have happened, if people would have ever evacuated: the Hezbollah chiefs hiding in cities would have seen the writing on the wall and escaped too. Israel would have massibely bombed the cities obtaining no result (just like it -IS- happening now). Then they would have figured out, and would have tried to kill the Hezbollah leaders hiding between the refugees by BOMBING THE REFUGEE CAMPS and the vehicle columns. Again, massacres of innocents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
And how would you have gone after Bin Laden faster? Nuclear carpet bombing of the Afghan/Pakistan border?

No, smartass.
#1: Sending Special Units IMMEDIATELY, not after MONTHS. And sending them where YOU KNEW that Bin Laden was, because America KNEW EXACTLY where he was; it was not done because Bin Laden is still today protected by the American government and the CIA (let me recall to your memory that Bin Laden received "friendly visits" from CIA operatives until 6 months before the 9/11/2001 attacks), so that he could be used in the future as an excuse for an escalation of this imperialistic war campaign against the Middle East.

#2: Not starting the war with a massive campaign of clueless bombings.

#3: Starting with sending just a little MORE troops than how many Police there is in Manhattan. Because the first batch of troops sent there was LESS than the number of cops in NYC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U
Yet you call us terrorists anyway when we do refrain from those tactics, so why should we bother?

Israel -IS- conducting a terroristic military operation. They are bombing UN positions and civilian settlements. Nowadays no enemy leader, no matter how high-profile he might be, is worth so much bloodshed. Not in a time where the war on terror should be fought with a laptop and a silencer. Yet it's much better to waste billions in missiles, because you have your damn contracts with the big American defense corporations and because if the IDF doesn't buys that much missiles yearly, the IMI (or IWI) will have to fire 1500 workers, which in a Country of about 6'000'000 people is an economic catastrophe. And, when you buy new missiles, the old ones HAVE to be used to make room in the arsenals, isn't that?
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  #25  
Old 07-28-2006
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Default Oh, Yankee, My old friend...

Quote:
Originally Posted by D Yankee (The Zionist)
I would be more than happy to bring our guys. Just don't call us when your neo fascist government strips you of every basic human right (again). And lines up all the communists and shoots them (again).

I would MORE THAN HAPPY to tell you "keep your boys here, please"... if their presence was motivated to the reasons above. But let's face the truth: IT WASN'T. They have been there for 60 years against a "Red Danger" that was everything but a DANGER. The Soviet missiles were aimed at us because YOUR BASES WERE HERE, otherwise them would have been pointed only on America... which would have still been tragic, but just like Americans do when it's about people abroad, many people here could not have given a shit less.
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  #26  
Old 07-28-2006
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Default Again

Start a petition to send them home, I'll be the first one to sign it. Personally I don't feel the need to have them in Germany, Italy, Japan etc. We need them here securing our borders. Like I said though, don't call us when you're in trouble. We're tired of being the world's police force.

I understand how you feel. I sure as hell don't want Italian or any other foreign troops on our soil.
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  #27  
Old 07-28-2006
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Thumbs up Thanks UZI

Quote:
Originally Posted by UZI4U

But I believe my PC needs different settings in order to be able to view that.
Monday morning my PC fellow will have a look.
Anyway, thanks.
And keep punching P.T.
he will give up sooner or later

../ct
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  #28  
Old 07-29-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
I would MORE THAN HAPPY to tell you "keep your boys here, please"... if their presence was motivated to the reasons above. But let's face the truth: IT WASN'T. They have been there for 60 years against a "Red Danger" that was everything but a DANGER. The Soviet missiles were aimed at us because YOUR BASES WERE HERE, otherwise them would have been pointed only on America... which would have still been tragic, but just like Americans do when it's about people abroad, many people here could not have given a shit less.


There is a misdirection in the thinking here and a bunch of people who don't understand history or uncertainty.

First off, Stalin grabbed and took direct control over most anything he could get his hands on. Historical fact. The other fact is that all of these things were established when he was the one in charge of the USSR.

Any Soviet conflict with the West, even if it was only initially with the US, would have involved movement along the borders in Europe. A major reason behind this is that quite simply, a ground invasion of the US by Russia was never likely to happen. At all. What "border" there is between the two countries is a lot of largely useless buffer terrain on both sides, or was back before oil was being developed. Invading Alaska from the mighty strategic position that is Siberia? HAH. And vice versa? Ditto.

Against someone like Stalin, and his inheritors who we were then afrain would be just like him, any war with the west was all to likely going to involve expansion, or at least be used as an excuse for such. And if it wasn't going to be the US he expanded to, where was he going to expand? Germany... Austria... Italy... Greece... Finland.

Immediately after WW2 most of Europe was in no shape for any kind of war, in fact in stomping on the Nazis the US, Britain, and USSR made damn well sure of that. But that left a problem; Stalin was largely similar to Hitler and similarly ambitious. And with Europe able to offer little or no resistance at that point in time, it would have been irresponsible to leave nations we called friends and had liberated defenseless. So bases were established.

They were never established to "draw fire" or some such nonsense in a nuclear exchange, in point of fact at the time they were created the war we feared was coming would have been largely conventional; the Soviets didn't yet have nuclear weapons.

The problem was how relations between the West and Stalinism were allowed to sour relations between the US and Soviet Union after he was gone.

I don't think the bases should have lasted as long as they did, and with the fall of the Iron Curtain they certainly became a pointless waste of money. We don't need to spend fortunes on foreign bases so soldiers can have fun playing "foreign echange student". But up until that fall who is to say? Without a US presence in Europe, if Pact forces massed in East Germany and stormed over West Germany and Austria... if Russia threatened nuclear exchange for US involvement, and the US had no forces on the ground in the area, what do you think would have happened? West Germany would have fallen to the Pact.

Oh yeah, and a lot of people would have been mad at the US for not helping stop it.

But honestly, as far as things go right now, most bases outside US territory are superfluous. A lot of people on all sides of the political spectrum in this country want them gone; some people insist on keeping them almost as a form of welfare.

As far as what would be convenient, a single base in the Mediterranean area would be about all the US needs outside of places in US territory like Guam. And that's just to have a place for ships and planes to refuel and repair; such a base could easily be a generalized NATO base.
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  #29  
Old 07-29-2006
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Default Sheesh...

You know PT, it's obvious you have a number of axes to grind- you seethe with hate for America, Americans, Capitalism, Israel and so many others.

Even the BBC has had to admit that they've been doing what the European press does best- manufacturing calumny against Israel. Just like you imbeciles adopted without question the mythological "massacre" of Jenin, you're attempting to do the same thing with a manufactured "wanton destruction" of Lebanon.

It's beyond laughable that you think- after all this time, and all the examples given by the Arabs- that your wonderful UN can do anything at all, much less anything constructive. The UN is manifestly anti-US and anti-Israel. Nobody with any sense can deny that. Why else would they continue- after being criticized for it- to allow "Palestinian" terrorists to use UN ambulances as cover?

Apparently, you need to be reminded of a few things:

UNIFIL was complicit in the abduction of three IDF soldiers in southern Lebanon. They not only did absolutely nothing to alert the outside world to what was happening, they actively concealed videotape of the incident because it may have provided Israel with intelligence that could have saved their soldiers.

The IDF is known for risking the lives of its soldiers to minimize the casualties of non-combatants. You know that very well, but you insist Israel is blindly lashing out and destroying Lebanon. You also know that Israel has shown more restraint than anyone after being attacked continuously for it's entire existence...and you continue to whine and lie.

Fully one third of the UN's resolutions are to condemn Israel. What's up with that? You think it's fair, obviously.

Also, you need reminding of the fact that the Hezbollidiots™ attacked israel this time around with the specific and stated goal of obtaining the release of one Samir Kuntar. Google that name, and be appalled- or not, if you hate Jooos as much as it sounds like you do.

Establishing a so-called "Palestinian" state would not only be an absolute catastrophe, it would be historically wrong- you EUrowhiners love to cry about land "stolen" by Israel, but the land you propose to give to the intentionally-stateless Arabs belonged- until after the so-called "Palestinians" began to whine about it- to Egypt and Jordan. How does creating a country where there was none from lands allegedly "stolen" by Israel, and given to some other Arabs, make any sense at all? If you think the Arab wars against Israel have anything to do with land, you're a bigger clown than I ever thought. Israel is 1% of the population of the ME, and it sits on 2% of the land. If you think there's anyone for Israel to "negotiate peace" with, you're not only an asshole- you're an intentionally stupid asshole at that.
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Last edited by Bacon Guy : 07-30-2006 at 12:08 AM.
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  #30  
Old 07-30-2006
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Default Holy Shit

I hadn't realized...

PT is actually as stupid as Tyler (PBUH). He actually thinks that:

1) There is peace to be made with Muslims.

2) With a "1" like that, you don't need a "2".

I guess he can't help it- he's a EUridiot, and we all know how effective their political theories have been throughout history.
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