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Old 07-28-2006
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Default So, What Would They Do?

So, What Would They Do?

http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/arti...rticleID=13189

I was listening with interest when a British reporter was called in by Fox News to give her 'analysis' of the current Middle East conflict between Hezbollah, Hamas and Israel. The context of the interview was in relation to Hezbollah's upping the ante by firing a new, longer range rocket into Afula, some ten miles south of Haifa.


The interviewer pointed out President Bush's statement that the root cause of the violence was Hezbollah and Hamas.
The British reporter, Hillary McKenzie, immediately took exception to Bush's statement, saying that 'in Europe's view' (which obviously was shared by McKenzie) the root of the problem was really Israel's refusal to grant the Palestinians a state of their own.
The fact that every 'occupied' territory vacated by Israel was immediately used to stage new attacks against Israel aside, what would, say, the British do? Let's just suppose that a group of Irishmen living in Ireland wanted an independent Irish state in place of the British mandate in Northern Ireland?
Let's sweeten the pot by pretending that the Irishmen wanting an Irish state on Irish soil in place of the British-ruled state set up by the British after conquering its inhabitants won't take 'no' for an answer?
To make it even more interesting, let's pretend that these Irishmen set up an anti-British terrorist group and gave it a nationalist-sounding name, like, maybe the "Irish Republican Army" with a cool acronym like the Palestinians have in the Palestinian Liberation Organization's acronym, PLO?
So, supposing there was an entity called the IRA that used bombs and terrorist attacks aimed at driving the British off Irish land and setting up an Irish state under Irish rule?
What would the British do?
Would they conduct ground wars against the IRA? Would they imprison the Irish 'freedom fighters' who were fighting with the only weapon they had -- terrorism -- against a ruling external nation much too powerful for the IRA to fight by conventional means?
Or would they, as McKenzie says Europe sees it, immediately turn Northern Ireland over to the Irish 'rebels?'
Indeed, would ethnic Irishmen seeking to free themselves from foreign rule even qualify as 'rebels'? Wouldn't they be 'freedom fighters' like the Palestinians?
What IS the difference between British rule in Northern Ireland and Israeli rule over the West Bank and Gaza? Is there one? You bet there is. Before there WAS a Britain, there was an Israel. And before the British ever discovered there was an island across the Irish sea, the 'Palestinian territories' were part of ethnic Israel. Northern Ireland was never composed of ethnic Britons.
And Britain did not come into possession of Northern Ireland as a consequence of repelling Irish invaders whose goal was the extermination of the British race.
While we're on the subject, China voiced its opposition to Israel's incursion into Lebanon at the Security Council, demanding Israel be condemned for its actions against Hezbollah.
What if there were an island composed of ethnic Chinese that had NEVER been part of the People's Republic of China? What if that island declared itself an independent nation? What would China do if Tawan resisted forcible unification with the Red Chinese? According to Beijing, it would use all the weapons at its disposal to bring Taiwan back under its rule.
What if Chechnya were to declare it did not want to be part of the new Russian Federation after the Soviet Union collapsed? What would Moscow do? Would it grant Chechnya the independence its population demanded? Or would it conduct a decade-long war, killing thousands of civilians in the process, to force Chechnya into the Russian Federation against the will of the majority of Chechen citizens?
What would the French do if the Vietnamese, after decades of colonial rule, declared its independence? Would it wish the Vietnamese rebels 'bon chance' and give the country back to its people? Or would it fight a ten-year war to keep Vietnam inside the sphere of French colonial influence?
Of course, none of these are exactly in parallel with the Israeli-Arab war. The Irish Republican Army poses no existential threat to the continued viability of Great Britain. The IRA has not sworn to annihilate every living Englishman and then seize Britain's assets for itself.
The Taiwanese have not attacked Beijing, or threatened the annihilation of the Red Chinese state and every living Chinaman on the mainland.
The Chechens have not banded together with the express purpose of destroying Russia and setting up a Chechen state in its place.
And the Vietnamese defeated the French, after which, it left them alone.
What would the United Nations do if New Zealand attacked Australia with the express purpose of annihilating Australia as a nation and exterminating every Australian it could find, simply because they were Australians? Would they urge Australia to show 'restraint'?
We already know what the British would do. They would increase their troop presence in Northern Ireland, and capture or kill every Irishman that lifted a hand against them. And they would NOT call the IRA 'freedom fighters'. They'd call them terrorists.
China has threatened to launch an all-out invasion of Tawian and overthrow any Taiwanese government that dared to formally declare independence from the Red Chinese government Taiwan was never part of.
And Moscow has been conducting an all-out war against Chechen 'rebels' whom Moscow calls 'terrorists' and not 'freedom fighters'.
But Israel, a sovereign member state of the United Nations, has fought five wars for its existence against the combined forces of the Arab world. In each case, the provocation for the Arab attacks was the mere existence of a Jewish state called Israel.
In each case, Brits, Chinese, Russians and UN have demanded Israel withdraw to indefensible borders, insisted on a cease-fire in order to give Israel's enemies a chance to rest and regroup before launching a new war. And in each case, it blamed Israel for causing the war BY ITS EXISTENCE, demanding it surrender parts of itself to the aggressors in exchange for a 'peace' that never came.
History tells us what THEY would do. But, of course, their situation is different.

They aren't Jews.
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Old 07-29-2006
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Default That's a bit unfair

I've been professionally trained in Public Relations, a course ran by reporters, presenters and editors and they are self-righteous and selfish. Reporters and editors print and report only what makes them money.

The views of the British Press does not constitute the views of all British people, and any suggestion that it does is illogical and unfair.

Most British people call 'Islamic Extremists' terrorists not 'Freedom Fighters' not 'Guerillas' or 'Insurgents'. I've never infact heard any person in my presence call them otherwise.

Further more Britain is not 'Europe', I am not European - we are a member of the European Union, our culture and social attitudes are different. If you think that British people share any identity with countries that have spent most of the last 1,000 years trying to invade us (and failing) you would be mistaken.
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Old 07-29-2006
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Default My friend

I was not aiming that at you or your countryemn. I was referring to the biased, backward, politically correct bullshit the media constantly crams down our throats. I meant no offence to you.
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Old 07-29-2006
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Default :)

Heh, sorry I kinda get bit over excited at times - I once shouted down a Lt.Col in a room full of people after he criticised Israel :/
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Old 07-30-2006
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBayonet
I once shouted down a Lt.Col in a room full of people after he criticised Israel.

I think you have been DEAD WRONG, Your Lt. Col. has the right to criticize mainly whatever he wants, and I am surprised you didn't got gigged (punished) for shouting him. Instead, it pisses me off that ISRAEL hides behing the "If you criticize us, if you don't like how we do, then you are an Evil Anti-Semite©" tactic to escape critics. The truth is that:

#1 - The Israelis live in the nightmare of a Vast Worldwide Anti-Zionist Conspiracy®" that doesn't exist (well, not any longer at least). They suffer of an "Isolation/Encyrclement Syndrome" which is basically a form paranoia. This form of paranoia is fed daily by those worldwide supporters of Israel who shout "Hey, look that little oasis of freedom and democracy stranded down there, how can it survive, hey, it HAS to defend!". NO, morons, in order to survive it has to be kind and gentle with his neighbours and don't give the inhabitants of the surrounding countries reasons to be afraid of it (i.e. its constant strive to enhance military capabilities). THEN, they sure have the right to defend themselves. But to defend against DIRECT ATTACKS, not against "possible threats" or "potential menaces". George W. Bush has started this motherfucking philosophy of the "Preventive War". It's DAMN WRONG. You DEFEND YOURSELF WHEN YOU ARE ATTACKED, you don't ATTACK TO DEFEND YOURSELF FROM A POTENTIAL ATTACK, because if the attacker is wrong and the defender is right, then if you attack you are DEAD WRONG, and you are the EVIL ONE of the situation. Understand, you Americans?

#2 - Something many DON'T WANT to listen: the jews have surely been victims of horrendous Crimes Against Mankind, since the Middle Ages with a peak of cruelty and horror during the Nazi era. BUT, it seems that, far away from understanding (for having experimented them on their own flesh and bones) how HORRIBLE those things are, and how we should all strive to avoid them now and forever, the Israelis seem to have just LEARNED HOW TO USE those Nazi tactics of war and civilian repression, and are USING them against the Palestinians and other peoples around. When the Israeli tanks enter Gaza, it reminds me of the German Blitzkrieg against Poland.
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Old 07-30-2006
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie

#1 - The Israelis live in the nightmare of a Vast Worldwide Anti-Zionist Conspiracy®" that doesn't exist (well, not any longer at least). They suffer of an "Isolation/Encyrclement Syndrome" which is basically a form paranoia. This form of paranoia is fed daily by those worldwide supporters of Israel who shout "Hey, look that little oasis of freedom and democracy stranded down there, how can it survive, hey, it HAS to defend!". NO, morons, in order to survive it has to be kind and gentle with his neighbours and don't give the inhabitants of the surrounding countries reasons to be afraid of it (i.e. its constant strive to enhance military capabilities). THEN, they sure have the right to defend themselves. But to defend against DIRECT ATTACKS, not against "possible threats" or "potential menaces". George W. Bush has started this motherfucking philosophy of the "Preventive War". It's DAMN WRONG. You DEFEND YOURSELF WHEN YOU ARE ATTACKED, you don't ATTACK TO DEFEND YOURSELF FROM A POTENTIAL ATTACK, because if the attacker is wrong and the defender is right, then if you attack you are DEAD WRONG, and you are the EVIL ONE of the situation. Understand, you Americans?

#2 - Something many DON'T WANT to listen: the jews have surely been victims of horrendous Crimes Against Mankind, since the Middle Ages with a peak of cruelty and horror during the Nazi era. BUT, it seems that, far away from understanding (for having experimented them on their own flesh and bones) how HORRIBLE those things are, and how we should all strive to avoid them now and forever, the Israelis seem to have just LEARNED HOW TO USE those Nazi tactics of war and civilian repression, and are USING them against the Palestinians and other peoples around. When the Israeli tanks enter Gaza, it reminds me of the German Blitzkrieg against Poland.

Point 1: I guess then the US shouldn't have driven the Germans out of Italy & Europe since they never attacked America ???

The whole point is not to be reactionary. Then it's too late.

Point 2: Jews suffered horrendously under the Communists as well during the last century (Not just the Socialist Nazis) They've also suffered under the constant threat & attacks of the arabs & muslims. Israel should have pushed all the sand fleas out of Gaza & the West Bank long ago, would have prevented lots of problems. When Israel tried to vacate So. Lebanon & Gaza they just get the 'thumb in the eye' from the rag heads.

I heard a high ranking officer in the US Military sum it up in regards to the jihadi's..... "Hit them hard & keep on hitting them until they fear you more than they hate you". I think he's right. Those idiots will never respect or like the US or Israel.
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Old 07-30-2006
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Default Well PT..

I disagree with the policy of not using preemptive strikes, if you feel that a country or organisation of people is a threat to you currently or is liable to be in the future I believe it's perfectly reasonable to remove the threat before it can attack. Would you disagree if the Americans had nuked Japan before they had attacked Pearl Harbour?, or if they had invaded Afghanistan before they had attacked the World Trade Centre, or if Britain had launched an attack on Argentine ports before they steamed out to invade the Falklands?. Preemptive strikes are a valid and legal military tactical decision, I'm afraid, PT you are taking one of the typical civilian lines on what you believe military tactical ethics should be.

Your statement that Israel is using 'Nazi' tactics is flawed, I don't see the IDF rounding Muslims into 'shower blocks' and gassing them, I don't see the IDF putting Muslims into labour camps and working them to death. You only make the comparison because it's a easy low-blow guranteed to get a reaction from Zionists.
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Old 07-30-2006
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBayonet
I disagree with the policy of not using preemptive strikes, if you feel that a country or organisation of people is a threat to you currently or is liable to be in the future I believe it's perfectly reasonable to remove the threat before it can attack.Would you disagree if the Americans had nuked Japan before they had attacked Pearl Harbour?, or if they had invaded Afghanistan before they had attacked the World Trade Centre, or if Britain had launched an attack on Argentine ports before they steamed out to invade the Falklands?


This is arguable and I could agree under condition that we examinate the KIND of attack that you want to carry on. A low-intensity para-launch of well-trained Special Forces that destroy specifically and only the "point" that causes the threat and cares ABSOLUTELY ZERO collateral damage?
An all-out airstrike with even 1% possibility of hitting civilian innocents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBayonet
Preemptive strikes are a valid and legal military tactical decision


Dead WRONG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBayonet
I'm afraid, PT you are taking one of the typical civilian lines on what you believe military tactical ethics should be.

Governants give orders. Military execute them. "Military tactical ethics" is do what they tell you to do. And they should tell you to HOLD BACK ALL ATTACKS if there is even any marginal possibility to hit innocents. It's not about "military tactics", it's about "command tactics". The Military does "immoral" things in Iraq, Afghanistan, Middle East, because they are given "immoral" orders by the "immoral" politicians that the Americans and the Israelis have put in charge; the kind of orders given by the kind of politicians that we Italians have ass-kicked out of office at the last elections. With the result that we will COMPLETELY WHITDRAW from Iraq before November ends; that we will COMPLETELY WHITDRAW from Afghanistan within one year; and that we are reconsidering Italian military presence in ALL those international missions that are not strictly UN "BLue Helmets" peacekeeping missions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBayonet
Your statement that Israel is using 'Nazi' tactics is flawed, I don't see the IDF rounding Muslims into 'shower blocks' and gassing them, I don't see the IDF putting Muslims into labour camps and working them to death. You only make the comparison because it's a easy low-blow guranteed to get a reaction from Zionists.

There's no need whatsoever of using labour camps and gas showers to be fascists. What they do in Gaza is what the Nazists did in the Warsaw ghetto. What they are doing in Lebanon is what the Nazists have done helping the Spanish fascists in the city of Guernica.
It's not an Israeli fault. Not 100% at least. They have been directly attacked two or three times in the last 50 years and have had to face direct invasion of their soil with enormous civilian and military losses. As a result, they are gone paranoid. Under a certain point of view, and until a certain time ago, they were right to be. But now, what they look like is a bunch of imperialists looking around for more "Lifespace" in the Sinai and in Lebanon.

A message to the Israelis: I love you, people. I basically hate NOBODY. That's why I want you to realize that if you do NOT make peace with your neighbours and don't whitdraw within the 1967 borders, letting be the birth of an independent Palestinian State in the turn of a few years, if you stubbornly think that you can keep on militarly removing the "menaces", those "menaces" will only become the more and more powerful in order to keep on standing against you, and you will have an escalation. It is ALREADY in front of you all, in case you haven't found out that the Hezbollahs are using high-accuracy, long-range missile systems of Syrian and Iranian manufacture to bomb Tel Aviv and even more South. You will soon use more powerful airstrikes to take them out, and they will use more powerful rockets to hit your territory. I have no idea who will be the first to use nuclear firepower, but this is bound to happen. If you don't get the things up NOW, I think that within 50 years from now, MAXIMUM, the State of Israel will cease to exist.
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Old 07-31-2006
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Arrow Jews & Muslims

both would fight each other in case that their common enemy disappears.

That's why the war must carry on.

When there were no Muslims, Jews were target of others. There will be always an enemy for the Jews. Must be. They must either suffer or attack. If ever peace will be, they will start to eliminate each other.

If you're Jew, you know that is true.
And the same is valid for the Muslims.

All the rest is merely politic and radio waves.

../ct
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Old 07-31-2006
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I think PT has seen too many Chuck Norris Delta Force movies. His answer to everything seems to be to send in an "elite small force" to take care of the problem. Well, that would be great but, in the REAL world, that is not always possible.
As for the Isrealis "using" the anti-semite lines, well, when your country is surrounded on 3 sides by nations that allow terror groups whose soul stated purpose for existing is to destroy Israel, then yes, I don't blame them at all! Sheesh...just use a little common sense.
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