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  #11  
Old 08-04-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesare
But i am quite convinced youre wrong, where did you find the pic to begin with?

http://www.personaldefenceweapons.com/
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  #12  
Old 08-04-2006
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As i wrote then...
( Probably your picture is from here: http://www.personaldefenceweapons.com...)

Trying to be more clear...

Again, i think that IT IS the Diemaco PDW just a very early prototype and the silenced one you posted as M2 IS a later prototype that could be seen in CASR's homepage. Actually sent a mail to Colt-Canada -former Diemaco to ask them to try to settle this, but no reply so far...
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  #13  
Old 08-04-2006
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The exact URL is this, but no further informations are given.

The weapon I posted as an M2 Corp. -IS- an M2 Corp.
M2 Corp. makes its M16-X since A LOT before DIEMACO ever came out with their "PDW" program that never made it out to production.
Nonetheless, mind, Canadians had SHOWN INTEREST in the M2 Corp. M16-X, and had asked possible shipments and/or license to manufacture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesare
I am not sure about the XM23A1 (i said M2 (or combined) subguns) with combined i meant that it might be a M2upper or whatever just wanted to find some extra pics to show you the diffrence between the M2 and the Diemaco, couldnt find the XM23A1 in your link but if you are sure, then i give you right since im not.

The XM-231 (which you incorrectly call the XM23A1) is to be found here, the picture you posted is the one of a "Commando A3" model equipped with a red-dot sight. Here is a picture without sight:


GSE (Gunsmoke Enterprises, Inc.) used to manufactured these weapons BEFORE the 1994 Brady Bill / Assault Weapons Ban, and re-started it after it faded in September 2005. The picture you posted of the "XM23A1" has probably been made BEFORE the 1994 ban: the weapon portrayed actually is a "Gunsmoke Enterprises XM231-A1" pre-ban model, which has now re-entered production as the "XM-231 Commando A3 pistol".
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"We (atheists) act in good conscience because we believe in moral principles, not because we expect a reward in Heaven." -- Margherita Hack


Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 08-04-2006 at 05:16 AM.
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  #14  
Old 08-04-2006
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You called it the XM-231/A1 "Commando" pistol, but now youre saying it is no suffix? Actually what i meant by that i couldnt find it before was the name XM231. But if you say the GSE-commando was called XM231 i believe you. I just saw that there was a post (here) from GSE, if it was sent in by them it is beyond any doubt. The name míght be refering to the colt XM231 port firing weapon? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_M231_FPW) And i give you right that probably is a XM231 with or without the -A1or M2 parts ... Whatever, this starts to be going in circles.
We seem to be talking past each other. Also since there are many loose threads here. Please comment the following:

#1 In your post here the top pic clearly differs from the bottom. Dont you agree? You mean they are both M16X? The top pic has a removable carryhandle, the one at the bottom is an older style fixed. The buttstock (easy to change i admit that, really looks like a Diemaco)

#2 Dont you agree that the CASR thumb REALLY (including silencer) look like the one in your post?

#3 Can we agree that Sabre Defence is UK-based (originally)?

Last edited by Cesare : 08-04-2006 at 06:19 AM.
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  #15  
Old 08-04-2006
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Default Clarifications down here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesare
You called it the XM-231/A1 "Commando" pistol, but now youre saying it is no suffix? Actually what i meant by that i couldnt find it before was the name XM231. But if you say the GSE-commando was called XM231 i believe you. I just saw that there was a post (here) from GSE, if it was sent in by them it is beyond any doubt. The name míght be refering to the colt XM231 port firing weapon? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_M231_FPW) And i give you right that probably is a XM231 with or without the -A1or M2 parts ... Whatever, this starts to be going in circles.

I have made some mistakes in identifying the models. Read down below CAREFULLY, and hope I will clarify your doubts.

The COLT M231-FPW "Firing Port Weapon" is one thing. The GSE XM-231 "Commando" pistols series is another.

GUNSMOKE ENTERPRISES, Inc. started the manufacture of the weapon you mistakenly call "XM23A1" BEFORE the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban. And back then, it was called the XM231-A1 "Commando" pistol.
Now that the AWB has expired, GUNSMOKE ENTERPRISES has restarted the manufacture of that series of pistols. Only with different names. The pistol formerly known as the "XM231-A1 Commando" is now called "XM-231 Standard A2 model Commando pistol", and is recognized for have no fixed sights, replaced by a top Weaver rail for NATO-standard optic sights.



Another pistol being part of the XM-231 series are the "XM-231 Standard A1 model Commando" pistol (which has fixed sights and a non-removable M16-style carrying handle), and which was previously known as the XM-231S.



The "XM-231 Standard A3 model Commando pistol" is similar to the A2 model, but has full rail handguard.



Different again is the "XM-231 Standard A3 model Tactical pistol", with different tactical rails and folding sights.



There also is another pistol (to which picture I only add a link because I can link only to 4 images overall) which GSE calls "XM-231 Standard A3 model Tactical pistol with full lenght quad rail handguard", and which also has a longer barrel.

We seem to be talking past each other. Also since there are many loose threads here. Please comment the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesare
#1 In your post here the top pic clearly differs from the bottom. Dont you agree? You mean they are both M16X? The top pic has a removable carryhandle, the one at the bottom is an older style fixed. The buttstock (easy to change I admit that, really looks like a Diemaco)

Yes, them are both M16-X. The only difference between one another is the UPPER RECEIVER. As you can see here, M2 Corp. mostly manufactures and sells its subcarbines in form of UPPER RECEIVERS ONLY, which can be mounted on any AR15/M16/M4 lower receiver. The upper receivers alone do not make a military or civilian weapon: them can be attached to a semiauto-only lower and make a civilian selfloading rifle; or be mounted on selective-fire lowers and make out military/police weapons. The lower picture is clearly an M16-X that is ENTIRELY made by M2 Corporation (even the LOWER RECEIVER of that particular one is made by M2). The upper one is an M16-X receiver of NEW MANUFACTURE, made to satisfy the needs of Special Applications units, and which has been seen many times at the SHOT Shows of the past years. THAT particular receiver has a removable carrying handle protecting a tactical sights rail, and an INTEGRALLY sound-suppressed barrel. The difference between the two upper receivers is that the non-suppressed one might be more easily legal for civilian use than the suppressed one (at least in some places/States/countries). But UNDOUBTABLY, them are two M16-X. The only difference between the two is that one is a standard model the other is a tactical-rails model with integrally-suppressed barrel.
As for the stock, everybody can make stocks of different kinds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesare
#2 Dont you agree that the CASR thumb REALLY (including silencer) look like the one in your post?

Hehe, I thought I had been clear, let me rephrase: the Canadians were originally looking at the M2 CORP. M16-X as a possible PDW. DIEMACO has took the "Diemaco PDW" project from the M16-X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesare
#3 Can we agree that Sabre Defence is UK-based (originally)?

I have been "following" the SABRE DEFENCE INDUSTRIES LLC. since 2002/2003, when they launched the XR16-PDW (there should be a picture of it somewhere in the gallery, otherwise I will post one), and them have always been an US-based company; them are the old RAMO DEFENSE SYSTEMS INC., whose products included sniper rifles
(such models are now being made by AURORA TACTICAL GROUP), and an US-based license assembly line for the Daewoo USAS-12 shotgun. RAMO was also an US Defence contractor for Browning M2 50-BMG machineguns barrels, and SABRE has releaved the contract, providing M2 barrels for the US Army.
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"We (atheists) act in good conscience because we believe in moral principles, not because we expect a reward in Heaven." -- Margherita Hack

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  #16  
Old 08-04-2006
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Default Arrgh

Sabre even though office in Texas is still UK-based, and they manufactured Ar15s long before starting in the USA.

Quote from here: http://www.ukproduction.co.uk/

" If these guy's promise to be there then the job is as good as done. We've used UK Production for the last 8 years and have never considered anyone else."

Guy Savage MD Sabre Defence LLC

Quote from here: http://www.snipercentral.com/m85.htm

Sabre Defense industries in the U.K. supposedly has the tooling now to start building these rifles again. They claim it will be available in 2005, but they have been saying "this year" for about 2 years now. But I do hope it happens.

If neither my former post of their own statement being british, or above statements convince you, im starting to believe you take some pride in never being wrong?
Maybe we could bet some money?

Last edited by Cesare : 08-04-2006 at 07:36 PM.
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  #17  
Old 08-05-2006
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PT-The Italian Commie PT-The Italian Commie is offline
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Question One foot in the USA and one in the UK maybe?

SABRE making M-85 "Parker-Hale" sniper rifles, sounds new to me. Do you have any further contact informations for the SDI UK branch? Physical address, phone and fax, URL, Email...?
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"We (atheists) act in good conscience because we believe in moral principles, not because we expect a reward in Heaven." -- Margherita Hack

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  #18  
Old 08-11-2006
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Lightbulb Sorry

Back from a great holliday, First of all i have solved the mystery once and for all. And to my great anoyance and shame, i must give you right; it IS a M2milcorp. PDW!! As i said, i e-mailed Diemaco and here's the reply from Tom Hortobagyi (Engineering):

> You are correct that the first attached photograph is of a PDW that was
> made by M2 Corp. with a four (4) inch (100 mm) barrel and suppressor but
> have no more details about it and I'm not sure whether M2 Corp. is still
> in existence or have started up manufacturing again. They had some export
> permit problems and US customs difficulties.
>
> The second photograph is of our 5.56 mm PDW with a 6 1/2 inch (165 mm)
> barrel and has never been manufactured as a production item. It was
> designed and built as a special requirement and has been tested and
> demonstrated. The rate of fire was reduced and the sliding buttstock was
> reduced as much as possible but the minimal overall length was still
> (slightly) over the maximum permitted length of 0.5 meters.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Tom Hortobagyi

Heres what i got about SDI UK:

United Kingdom
Sabre Defence Industries, LTD
Sabre House, Belvue Road
Northolt
UB5 5QJ
United Kingdom

Phone: +44 (0) 20 8842-0603
Fax: +44 (0) 20 8845-4814
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  #19  
Old 08-12-2006
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Cesare can you, please, repost the 2 pictures about which you speak ?
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  #20  
Old 08-12-2006
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Apparently:

SDI - Sabre Defence Industries LLC (USA): http://www.sabre-defence.com/

Sabre Defense Industries, LTD. (UK): http://www.sabredefence.com

But maybe it's just me...

As for the pics, ROGER, I think he speaks of these two:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg a.jpg (53.1 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg Diemaco_PDW.jpg (20.0 KB, 0 views)
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"It is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself, when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law." -- Malcolm X

"We (atheists) act in good conscience because we believe in moral principles, not because we expect a reward in Heaven." -- Margherita Hack


Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 08-12-2006 at 03:45 AM.
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