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  #11  
Old 08-13-2006
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Default My sincerest excuses!

Quote:
Originally Posted by D Yankee (The Zionist)
I dont ever recall any of the things you have quoted me saying.

It was JCOYOTE, not you. I have messed up with the quotings... I'm going to correct them right over.
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  #12  
Old 08-13-2006
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SDA's and Buddhists ARE heavily organized. So your argument is misguided as I said before. POINT OF FACT: SDA's publish magazines and literature SUPPORTING the separations of church and state, and back it up regularly. They number somewhere in the range of 12-24 million members around the world. In which case, shut up, because you are busy trying to act like an authority about something about which you have NO CLUE AT ALL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
What I instead feel to be ABLE to comprehend is that believing that there actually exists some thing as a deity or a superior entity is an insult to the millennias of human evolution and achievements.

Religion and spirituality have a place in life that your state and science simply can't touch. It bugs you, but touching souls is something beyond the power of these things, and it will always be so. What you have said is an insult to the billions of humans in history whose belief in something beyond themselves moved them past despair, motivated them to work together, and encouraged them to help their fellow man. All those who were inspired to believe the world could be a better place and helped make it so. There are a LOT of them.

Seriously, go study belief structures for half a lifetime to get where I am, or stop making these absurd statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
I mean, do you -REALLY- think that there's some long-bearded guy, up there, who knows what you do and what you think and watches you 24/7, and he has a special list of 10 things that he doesn't wants you to do, and if you do one of these things you go in a very hot, flaming place, with ugly sods armed with pitchforks will torture for the rest of the eternity? But HE LOVES, you, of course. And he NEEDS your charity donations for his "messengers on Earth".

This has no application to my beliefs or those of hundreds of millions of others. I think your early experiences with religious authorities have led to willful ignorance of a vast number of beliefs and led you to insult vast numbers of people around the world who don't believe the words you keep trying to put in their mouths. Like I said before, study a lot more before you ever take this line of thought again.

A significant defining feature of religions is the belief that reality and the world can change for the better, with some human interaction, by means that have no scientific evidence to back them. That's called faith. A higher entity is not a prerequisite of a religion/spirituality; another bit of your ignorance. But you know what faith is; a fundamental aspect of Marxism is the belief that the world can be perfected by means that have not yet proven to be factually possible, and which in point of fact until the goal is achieved will never be proven so. And you desire to steer the entire world toward this unproven and scientifically unprovable goal. Because you have a belief that it is ideal and achievable in spite of any evidence. That's called faith. And Marxism is yours.

I never said it was a perfect analogy, but it seems to have stung you. Truth hurts. You hide behind the cloak of calling it "politics" to justify assaults on others in the name of your beliefs. That doesn't change the fact that amoingst political beliefs, Marxisms have all the most significant earmarks of religions; faith in the unproven, codes of behavior, and even prophets. You only get riled when I call it religious because you so vehemently hate religion in principle. Most communists are indoctrinated that way fairly early. Oh yeah... indoctrination is a common mark of religions as well. Just because Marxism concerns itself with an entirely material world is meaningless; a lot of religions share that trait as well.

PT, the religious fundamentalist.

Last edited by JCoyote : 08-13-2006 at 08:28 PM.
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  #13  
Old 08-13-2006
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"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God......."
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  #14  
Old 08-14-2006
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Default JCoyote...

I am NOT surprised to see that you, [A], haven't understood a flying f**k of about 50% of what I say, and [b], are unable to see the world with the eyes of a skeptic. Religious belief can distort perception much more than political beliefs, because one can shift political side but can NOT abdicate completely something that he is really persuaded that he can be punished by in this or, worse, another life. You are between them; this is why you and me will be never able to get along when it comes about "spiritual" matters.

Otherwise
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  #15  
Old 08-14-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
I am NOT surprised to see that you, [A], haven't understood a flying f**k of about 50% of what I say, and [b], are unable to see the world with the eyes of a skeptic. Religious belief can distort perception much more than political beliefs, because one can shift political side but can NOT abdicate completely something that he is really persuaded that he can be punished by in this or, worse, another life. You are between them; this is why you and me will be never able to get along when it comes about "spiritual" matters.

Otherwise

Well let's see... you accused all religions of being inherently violent and desiring to rule the people politically. In fact, I'll quote that so you can't go back and sanitize it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
ALL religions require an "enemy" to fight, in either way, and killing when fighting the enemy of the faith is NOT a sin in ALL religions. This includes Christianship.
You quite emphatically throw a net around every religion on earth. Then you back tracked and said that you only meant heavily organized religions. Does it look to anyone else like the above statement only means religions with millions of members and a centralized structure? Oh yeah, I proved it false with evidence... Then he acts like I'm the one who doesn't understand what is being said.

I offer evidence of comparative belief structures, and these are techniques used in the anthropological study of human beliefs which I was educated in at a state college. The only thing you can offer in reply is semantics. As we say, looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... Or the Bard "A rose by any other name..." The only argument you have offered is words, no evidence. Which is also oddly unscientific. I do see the world with the eyes of a skeptic, otherwise I wouldn't have taken training like that. You need to learn to see things from inside and outside.

As for the punishment in afterlife thing, that's the SECOND time you have thrown that inapplicable load of garbage at me. I'll put it clearer this time: HELL IS NOT PART OF MY BELIEFS. And you're the one who says I don't understand what you are saying. I'm not trying to save your soul, or prove a higher power exists, or any such nonsense. I'm trying to show you that there are many very reasonable people for whom religion and spirituality form an important part of their life that YOU keep viciously insulting without even seeming to realize it. You willfully denigrate many many people who do a lot of good in the world... many who are just lower class people like you and me whose beliefs lead them to help others more than you or I.

You insult them everytime you say this. You'd preach at them about the pointlessness of their ways the same way a psycho fundamentalist minister would preach at a bunch of pagans.

Has it ever occured to you that IF you want your beliefs to be attractive and spread, you maybe should lead by example with a bit of diplomacy and show them how life could be? Without saying a word about what they believe. Making false aspersions and attacking will only galvanize those who encounter you against what you believe. And thus communism would continue to be a perenial loser on the world stage. If you really believe it, give it the dignity of having a chance with people who encounter you.
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  #16  
Old 08-14-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCoyote
Well let's see... you accused all religions of being inherently violent and desiring to rule the people politically[...]You quite emphatically throw a net around every religion on earth. Then you back tracked and said that you only meant heavily organized religions. Does it look to anyone else like the above statement only means religions with millions of members and a centralized structure? Oh yeah, I proved it false with evidence... Then he acts like I'm the one who doesn't understand what is being said.

PLEEEASE, give me a break. ALL clerics dream to wake up one day and live in a teocracy where THEY have the power. This regardless of the religion they are part of. This point is ESPECIALLY EVIDENT (if not a prominent character) in heavily organized religions (Christianship and Islam, mainly), which have a centralized structure of power very similar to the one of a Monarchical state; many of them -HAVE- worked in the past as structures of Temporal Power (see the State of the Church) and some do still today (see Iran). But I don't say that in the mildly-organized ones or non-organized ones does not exists such a "dream". Maybe it doesn't exists only in primitive, tribal-stage animist cults in Africa and Amazzonia.
But this "dream of power" of the clerics and the religion "in se" can be easily concealed if it's not shown opnely. It can be pushed with way more subdole and effective ways. Think about when fundamentalists push the Governments to pass laws like anti-abortion, anti-divorce, anti-scientifical research, things like that. It's the same thing done more swiftly: making the letter of the "Law of the Men" become alike to the letter of the "Law of God". And this ain't NO good, except in these obvious cases where the law contemplates rules (prohibition to kill, to steal, etc.) which -DO- are in the "Law of God" too, but which IMHO are much more rules of common good sense and civil convience than religious precepts. If the Bible would have never been written, murder and theft would still be punished as felonies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCoyote
I offer evidence of comparative belief structures, and these are techniques used in the anthropological study of human beliefs which I was educated in at a state college. The only thing you can offer in reply is semantics. As we say, looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... Or the Bard "A rose by any other name..." The only argument you have offered is words, no evidence. Which is also oddly unscientific. I do see the world with the eyes of a skeptic, otherwise I wouldn't have taken training like that. You need to learn to see things from inside and outside.

You said it: talking of religion IS oddly unscientific.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCoyote
As for the punishment in afterlife thing, that's the SECOND time you have thrown that inapplicable load of garbage at me. I'll put it clearer this time: HELL IS NOT PART OF MY BELIEFS. And you're the one who says I don't understand what you are saying. I'm not trying to save your soul, or prove a higher power exists, or any such nonsense. I'm trying to show you that there are many very reasonable people for whom religion and spirituality form an important part of their life that YOU keep viciously insulting without even seeming to realize it. You willfully denigrate many many people who do a lot of good in the world... many who are just lower class people like you and me whose beliefs lead them to help others more than you or I.

You Americans have a quite strange concept of "insult" (which in your case seems to be "Insult=Criticize something or somewhat you don't agree with"), like you have a strange concept of "Cowardice" ("Cowardice=Quality of a Country or a Government of a foreign Country which does nots promptly backs up all US military actions wherever and whenever worldwide"), and of "Being an enemy" ("Being an enemy=Not promptly backing up ALL US policies worldwide AND try to set up a dialogue within different cultures and political parts, included the ones which the US actions are aimed to destroy"). Because YOU Americans have a typically American, heavily pragmatic way to see the world: it's all WHITE or BLACK. "With us or against us". "They can't stand what we stand for". "Good or Evil". The world would be a quite nicer, simpler place if that was the truth of the facts. But that's not. The world does NOT goes like that. And the same people who makes you think that it does instead know it VERY good and are the first to act ambiguously.
If with "Insult" the religious people you mean that I point out religion as being irrational and totally contrary not only to the evolution and progress of humankind, but to the CONCEPT of evolution as well, then SURE I do. I just hope you did not meant THAT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCoyote
You insult them everytime you say this. You'd preach at them about the pointlessness of their ways the same way a psycho fundamentalist minister would preach at a bunch of pagans.

Oh, NO, no, no, no, man. NO WAY. I do not preach at them as a minister to pagans. I don't tell them "Convert yourselves or be cursed forever". I express my opinions and DON'T ask anybody to uniform to them; I know them would not, just asking that'd be an useless waste of time and energy. What I say is much better translated in "Set the brain switch to the ON position and make it work. If after a LONG working phase it will tell you to revisit your beliefs, you are welcome. If it tells you to stick with them, you are welcome as well. But if you DON'T switch the brain on, then screw ya".

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCoyote
Has it ever occured to you that IF you want your beliefs to be attractive and spread, you maybe should lead by example with a bit of diplomacy and show them how life could be? Without saying a word about what they believe. Making false aspersions and attacking will only galvanize those who encounter you against what you believe. And thus communism would continue to be a perenial loser on the world stage. If you really believe it, give it the dignity of having a chance with people who encounter you.

I am not a propagandist. I will never be a politician, because I don't have a single gram of diplomacy in my body. What do you mean with "wanting my beliefs to be attractive and spread"? I am not making ANY propaganda. What I exposed here is my PERSONAL belief about religion, not my POLITICAL belief. If I had to talk about the religion in political (Marxist) terms, I'd simply liquidate it with the expression "Opium Des Volks" ("Opium of the People", which means that the religion has always been used by the central powers of aristocratic/bourgeoise extraction as a mean of control over the masses), and somewhat I think so. But my thought is different in one massive way: not only, on one hand, all religions are an instrument of power; but the great, organized religions have a MASSIVE IMPULSE to GET POLITICAL POWER ON THEIR OWN HANDS THEMSELVES, like them have done in the past; and generally ALL religions have something that poses them and their rules OVER the "Law of the Men", thus making the religion itself, following this point of view, suitable to replace the Temporal Power (the State and the legally elected representants of the People) as a direct rule over the populace.

And by the way, hearing of "tolerance" from such a pulpit as the homeland of "With us or against us" and "No peace with Muslims"...
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"We (atheists) act in good conscience because we believe in moral principles, not because we expect a reward in Heaven." -- Margherita Hack


Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 08-14-2006 at 09:46 AM.
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  #17  
Old 08-16-2006
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Dealing with that last part, this is an interperson issue I was talking about, lets not bring our nations into it, they are beside the point.

I see you still make broad unfounded assumptions about large groups of people and state them openly. I have proven them false in many cases. So, just judging by your statements regarding insults, I'm guessing making negative and false statements about people, or their beliefs, is just fine by you. I hope you appreciate the joke when I introduce you to people as a gay necrophiliac fascist, who looks forward to a rollicking threesome with Mussolini and his own father. I mean, since you don't find that sort of statement insulting, after all.

Even though there is in some cases elements of truth about what you said, the broadness of how you worded it is the problem. It's like some cop pulling over a black man because he was driving a nice car... a lot of black people don't have much money so he figured it was stolen. But that's the wrong thing to do. Assumption of guilt based on the actions of a few is something that we, in particular around here, have a problem with. After all, criminals use guns sometimes right? And therefore many people want to brush us legal firearms owners with that same brush of criminality. In what you said, you shared the mentality and logic of a firearms banner.

The other point I was trying to make, is that if you would like your own beliefs to be treated with a degree of dignity, at least by me, you need to treat the beliefs of others with some dignity as well. People's beliefs are part of who they are; it's a core issue of psychology and sociology. Making disrespectful statements about other people's beliefs is almost always considered insulting. Anywhere. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with whether you think there is truth in what they believe or if it is a load of garbage; what I'm talking about is respect on a personal level enough to allow civilized behavior. I apologize for making the assumption that your particular take on religion stemmed from Marxist thought, but it isn't radically divergent from their mainlines either so it was an easy mistake.

As for diplomacy, it might be useful to politicians but it is an absolute necessity to a leader. And the thing is, in a democracy... everyone is in some small degree a leader. A very useful talent is the ability to think like a leader; this is the lense to judge the actions of those who are leaders. Otherwise, people are just complaining about results, instead of condemning decisions.

BTW, I missed the memo about us USA'ers being at war with all muslims.
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  #18  
Old 08-19-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
PLEEEASE, give me a break. ALL clerics dream to wake up one day and live in a teocracy where THEY have the power. This regardless of the religion they are part of. This point is ESPECIALLY EVIDENT (if not a prominent character) in heavily organized religions (Christianship and Islam, mainly),


Alright, I've heard ENOUGH of this bullshit.

First off, Judaism has been 'heavily organized' since before the first Greek was born, much less the first Roman or Christian or Italian or Muslim. We've been 'organized' for almost 6,000 years, and we've had three nations to our name. Christians and Muslims are toddlers in diapers puking on the carpet compared to us.

And frankly, we just don't give a damn about who you are or what god you decide to serve. We have no wish to force others to comply with our faith. That's why we don't try to even convert people much less control them. To argue otherwise is to argue against a reality anyone with even the slightest understanding of Judaism knows.

Frankly if you offered the whole damn world to my congregations Rabbi he would flat out reply not just no, but hell no.

For simple proof I offer you modern Eretz Yisrael, a Jewish nation which has been a recognized state for 58 years. It is a democracy and it's population is 76% Jewish. By your claims any such nation should have turned into a theocracy like Iran.

Yet Israel isn't like Iran. Israeli citizens are free to practice whatever religion they wish, or no religion at all. They are free to worship their gods, talk openly about it and even try to convert other Israelis to it as they see fit. Doing that in Iran would result in execution.


So what exactly is your point PT, besides baseless bigotry against all religions?
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  #19  
Old 08-19-2006
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Default I agree

From what I've seen, Jews are the most tolorant people I've ever seen even in the ace of the constant bigotry and attacks they face from other religions (even some Christians). I don't know of one Jew who woulld like to wake up to an international Jewish state. It's just not so.
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Old 08-19-2006
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Default They're doing us a favor

Tyler, PT, and the other transnational collectivists are doing us a favor by removing their masks so the rest of us can gaze uopn their ugliness.

Inside every "progressive" is a narcissistic tyrant waiting to exert itself. Inside every utopian is a bigoted fascist.

They are as intolerant as the most orthodox follower of any religion, and as militant in their conviction as any fascist- the very same characteristics they would ascribe to us, or anyone else who resists cleaving to their progressive, nuanced, enlightened plan to micromanage the rest of us lumpen proletariat into our graves.
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