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  #11  
Old 09-19-2006
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A Beretta design of the last prototype model ( III gen.):
Multirail system, quick barrel change (double button on the side), multi position stock:
I really don't know what is the "object" on the lower rail... a grip handle, a retractable grip AUG style, the GL add on point…

Here with the GLX160 new 40mm granade launcher:

Three prototypes of the new beretta are coming: one for the squad commander, and two for ranger and grenadier, of which delivery is expected in autumn 2006(!!).
Results of field tests will lead to the fourth phase, the industrialization of the product and production of a first batch of systems.
In November Beretta should present the firing model.
I had seen a photo of the prototype, but I’ve not access again to it, because in the photo album of a Italian SF member.
Sorry...
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  #12  
Old 09-19-2006
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Lightbulb BERETTA could do the things much simpler now.

I think that the fine folks at Gardone should not bother in developing anything new. I mean, they have launched the RX4-STORM carbine. Make it selective-fire and you have solved the problem. The RX4-STORM already has plenty of rails for any attachments that the Future Soldier might need, including grenade launcher and fire control computer; it has a telescopic stock to fit soldiers of different heights. It is carbine-sized, but hey, it's like candy for Beretta, they -CAN- do a longer-barrel, longer-frame, QCB rifle-sized version if the want/need/are asked to. The RX4-STORM is damn simple to operate and requires very little training. It is already made in two versions (civilian and "Military/LE", this last one intended to be placed on the market as a police patrol carbine), and the latter one uses the 1:9 rifling twist and will readily accept ALL .5'56x45mm-NATO ammunitions, ranging from M-193 to SS-109 to Mk262 (while the civilian one, at least in Italy, uses the 1:12 rifling twist to fire only M-193 type cartridges and other civilian-grade pattern .223-Remington, while SS-109 and Mk262 are "Military/LE only"). It takes STANAG magazines (even in the civilian version, which is strange in Italy, at least within the past 5 years when the bureaucrats of the right-wing Government imposed some restrictions, since the highest allowed capacity for civilian non-smoothbore long arms is 10 rounds, they thought them should not been made able to use any other magazine than the given factory ones... ); and it quickly fits suppressors. A selective-fire RX4-STORM plus all the Fire Control System attached = Italian future weapon without spending too much money in further small arms development.

Bot obviously, nor the Military/Government officials, nor those industry engineers tasked to such programs, EVER seem to look towards the direction that gives you the best results in less time, more easily and with less expense and trouble in engineering and manufacturing (an example in the USA: "OICW"... ).

See some good pictures of the RX4-STORM definitive version HERE.
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  #13  
Old 09-19-2006
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RX4 is a very good carbine, but I'm not sure it could satisfy the military standard... it's only a benelli argo "tactical".
We need a folding, multi adactable stock, a stronger frame, a full auto capability, a quick change barrel, and a plastic light weight frame.
RX4 has a civilian structure frame not ideal for desertic environment... and in a full 20" barrel, i think it could be longer than standard AR.
I think that beretta should design a weapon interesting for the NATO forces and other, not another "italian army only" rifle...
It's always the oldest and best gun industry on the earth!
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  #14  
Old 09-20-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
RX4 is a very good carbine, but I'm not sure it could satisfy the military standard...


Yes, instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
it's only a benelli argo "tactical".

And its Auto-Regulating Gas-Operated system ensures superior reliability respect to most of rifles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
We need a folding, multi adactable stock, a stronger frame, a full auto capability, a quick change barrel, and a plastic light weight frame.

All this -CAN- be had on an RX4-STORM. It will take a snap of fingers to BERETTA to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
RX4 has a civilian structure frame not ideal for desertic environment...


WRONGO. The RX4-STORM has originally been conceived as a POLICE PATROL CARBINE, especially for maritime ops, urban operations and border patrol; and generally for all those police operations where range, acuracy and punch is needed, while the pattern spread of a shotgun or the high ROF of a selective-fire weapon could pose concerns to the safety of bystanders. It -HAS- been made to survive very harsh environments. Its parts are much more protected from external "aggressors" (mud, dust, rust, water, etc.) than in the 70/90 rifles. The CIVILIAN version of the RX4-STORM, or at least the idea of manufacturing it for civilians too, came only at a latter moment of the final phases of development; basically, they decided to make it available on the civilian market because, being it only a semi-automatic carbine, it was much probably legal to sell to civilians in most Countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
...and in a full 20" barrel, i think it could be longer than standard AR.

WRONGO again. A standard assault rifle DOES NOT NEEDS a 20" barrel, nowadays. Modern (and probably future) wars are (and will most probably be) almost completely fought in the very close ranges of urban warfare. Soldiers don't need a full-sized rifle that will encumber them when entering a building, or when firing from a hideout behind a corner. A 18" barrel is just fine for a modern assault rifle. 20" is for marksman rifles, or for an assault rifle if it's made to fire, so to speak, .7'62x51mm-NATO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
I think that beretta should design a weapon interesting for the NATO forces and other, not another "italian army only" rifle...

From a Beretta estimator to another Beretta estimator, let's be honest: "NATO forces and others" are NOT buying Beretta. There is a strong tendence, at least as for the Militaries, to have the individual weapons manufactured nationally; or at least by a foreign maker but on homeland soil. Depending on foreign shipments during a war can result into BIG troubles; everybody knows it since World War 2 at least, and the modern warfare has had no change as for this. BERETTA can hope to appeal the worldwide Law Enforcement markets, with its selective-fire/full-auto products; and, if they make a VERY GOOD assaut rifle, maybe some NATO or future European Special Forces. But I seriously doubt that any Army in the world other than Italy will want to arm completely with BERETTA in the future. And NOT because it makes bad products, not at all: but the high quality of BERETTA products is also a "cons"; high quality calls for high price; and high price prevents most buyers to acquire huge quantities. In the past, the Beretta BM-59 has appealed Armies in Africa and South-East Asia, and had substantial contracts. But there -IS- a reason why those very same armies mostly held up with the AK-47, and why many others stick with it and with the M-16 nowadays: readily available on the market in huge quantities, not much time to wait if ordered factory-new in large numbers, above all CHEAP. The M-16 is no better than the 70/90, than the RX4-STORM or than the future AR-160. But it's CHEAPER. If you want a confirmation, look at the Countries that have adopted the best, finest, and most expensive, assault rifles worldwide: the Heckler&Koch G-36 and the Swiss SIG SG-540/550. Spain, Mexico and Greece (G-36) are manufacturing it locally (Greece not yet, but will start soon); Chile (SIG) is manufacturing it locally. Law Enforcement agencies can efford to have their guns made abroad and imported because they generally don't need huge quantities, and so they can contain the costs.
Another factor that has backed up many Special Forces sales of BERETTA products (which could have boosted foreign sales, since, for the reasons mentioned above, massive exports are to be excluded) is the very low "modularity", or adaptivity of the BERETTA sub-machineguns and assault rifles to accept accessories. The Italian Armed Forces and Law Enforcement Agencies are completely equipped with BERETTA products (with some foreign weapon in the hands of Special Forces). This makes of them the hugest BERETTA contractor worldwide. BERETTA's high quality workmanship calls for high price. But the Italian state -HAS- to keep prices low somehow; and this is done by having simple, "no-bells-and-whistles" guns. This also improves reliability and ease to use, but whatever. Fact is that this extremely simple construction also makes them poorly prone to accept all the optionals that the Special Forces need for their job. And NOT because BERETTA can't do it; as I say, it's just a matter of making the guns more accessible to their main customer.
They need a more modular weapon to make it commercially viable in a better way. The RX4-STORM is at least a good point to start from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
It's always the oldest and best gun industry on the earth!

Roger that!
But sadly, especially in America, it has a lot of haters.
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  #15  
Old 09-20-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
Roger that!
But sadly, especially in America, it has a lot of haters.

I don't hate Beretta, just the M9.

Beretta makes some great firearms, but everything about the M9 annoys me.
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  #16  
Old 09-20-2006
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Again, I don't think RX4 would be an ideal heavy duty assault rifle...
Before having "a folding, multi adactable stock, a stronger frame, a full auto capability, a quick change barrel, and a plastic light weight frame" on a Storm, i think beretta could have it fastest and better on a 70/90 upgrade model.
you say baretta can do it on a Storm," It will take a snap of fingers to BERETTA to do it."
But beretta don't. They say we will have not ever a fullauto RX4.
I love 70/90 mechanics ( but the aesthetics is very ugly), so could you explain me how " Its parts (RX4)are much more protected from external "aggressors" (mud, dust, rust, water, etc.) than in the 70/90 rifles."
I'd like to learn more, because i'm not an expert about this rifle,thanks!^^
When I say that " in a full 20" barrel, i think it could be longer than standard AR.", is it wrong, or a 20" rifle is not so necessary?
These are two different business, or not?
The first one is a size, the second one is an opinion...
And if the .223 will be still the battlefield king, a long barrel seems to be important, to achieve some stopping power or range, according to USMC and others, even if i agree with you more that than with them!
And i would like to have a "instant seller" assault rifle made in beretta.
So many countries have not their national produced rifle, but they buy foreign model, as the success of aug, g36, and other gun demonstrate.
We need an italian military rifle of that class, to sell worldwide!
The 70/90 need only a multirail system to be "on the top" with the other super seller rifle?

(multyrail model from B&T)
I don't think so.
Beretta love civilian, hunting, sporting, police markets, being imbaraced when selling "war" weapons.
This is the matter. It's italian hypocrisy, i fear...

In the gun field, americans hates who is better than them, instead triyng to learn from him,sometime...
Again, excuse my poor english...
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  #17  
Old 09-20-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
In the gun field, americans hates who is better than them, instead triyng to learn from him,sometime...

Oh brother.

I do not hate Beretta, who sometimes make better firearms than American companies.

I did not hate H&K, back when they used to make better firearms than American companies.

I do not hate Toyota, who make better cars than American companies... and the rest of the world for that matter.

I do not hate the UK, who makes better liquor than American companies.

I do hate France, who makes better wine than American companies, but that isn't related to the wine but rather is related to the whine...


I like many of Bertta's rifles, including the new RX4... My only complaints about it have really been the same ones you lay out. My only complaint on the CX4 has been the overly-long 16" barrel [not Berettas fault], the slightly weird stock design and the lack of some 'tactical' do-dads. I like many of Beretta's handguns, including the new PX4.

But I do not like the M9/Beretta 90-series. I just don't. There are things about it that annoy me.

...

If you want a classic example of hating someone better than you, rather than learning from them, just ask PT about the F-22.
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  #18  
Old 09-21-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
Again, I don't think RX4 would be an ideal heavy duty assault rifle...

I think it would. It just takes some work on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
Before having "a folding, multi adactable stock, a stronger frame, a full auto capability, a quick change barrel, and a plastic light weight frame" on a Storm, i think beretta could have it fastest and better on a 70/90 upgrade model.

The STORM already has a plastic lightweight frame. As for the "70/90 upgrade", take a look at the AR-160 mock-up: looks like that's NOT the direction BERETTA wants to go. Looks like they are merging the AR-70/90 with the RX4-STORM. I say, then, that making a full-auto RX4 is much faster

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
you say baretta can do it on a Storm," It will take a snap of fingers to BERETTA to do it."
But beretta don't. They say we will have not ever a fullauto RX4.

This, just because they aren't asked yet. But as I stated above, looking at the AR-160 progress, looks like they are making a "mix" of the two designs. At the and, what we will have -WILL- be a "full-auto RX4", or at least something very close to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
I love 70/90 mechanics ( but the aesthetics is very ugly), so could you explain me how " Its parts (RX4)are much more protected from external "aggressors" (mud, dust, rust, water, etc.) than in the 70/90 rifles."

The RX4-STORM frame does it all. It perfectly "wraps" the gun in a polymer shell; the 70/90 weapon, designed for simplicity (which is a GOOD thing, after all), has instead most of its crucial components exposed. It is somewhat "naked" against "external aggressions".

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
I'd like to learn more, because i'm not an expert about this rifle,thanks!^^

Synopsis of the ARGO (Auto-Regulating Gas-Operated) system, used in the BERETTA RX4-STORM carbine, in the BENELLI "ARGO" rifle (R1, for the American market) and in the BENELLI M4 SUPER-90 shotgun (M1014-JSCS, for the American military) can be found HERE in Italian. In English, something can be read HERE, on the WIKIPEDIA article about the M1014-JSCS (which, above all, explains WHY we finally have a semi-automatic shotguns that does NOT jams with under-powered loads like riot control shells, etc.). A good explaination in English of the ARGO system is to be found HERE too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
When I say that " in a full 20" barrel, i think it could be longer than standard AR.", is it wrong, or a 20" rifle is not so necessary?
These are two different business, or not?
The first one is a size, the second one is an opinion...

In nowadays military operations, a 20" barrel is too long and bulky. 20" barrels are made for long engagements which are pretty rare, now, as most battles are fought in urban situations; long-range engagements can still be a reality, so to speak, in southern-Afghan battlefields, and that's why we need platoon marksmen, and quick-change barrels for different lenghts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
And if the .223 will be still the battlefield king, a long barrel seems to be important, to achieve some stopping power or range, according to USMC and others, even if i agree with you more that than with them!

The .5'56x45mm-NATO cartridge already HAS a good stopping power. It is highly vituperated, if you ask me, so we'd better cast some light:
#1: Already in VERY SHORT barrels (even 4" barrels used in the "Micro-M16" made by M2 CORP.), the .5'56mm is very good at 50 Mts. Such a short barrel is obviously completely unsuitable for military operations, except if you want to give an extremely powerful PDW to aircrewmen and tank crews; but for law enforcement duties such as close quarters counter-terror (room clearing, VIP protection, etc.) it is a fair choice. The cons are the difficult controllability in Full-Autofire, the tremendous blast and noise, and the fast barrel wearing-out. BUT, but, the .5'56x45mm-NATO already gives very good performances in the 14,5" (36,8 Centimetres) of the M4/M4-A1 carbine; not to mention that several US Special Forces use the "Commando" subcarbine with an even shorter barrel, 11,5" (29,2 Centimetres). And that's the M4, not the M-16, to be currently most widely issued within US Forces deployed in places such as Afghanistan and Iraq. Or, at least, so I see from watching the news report. I see 1 American soldier armed with M-16 each 5 other American soldiers armed with M4. Furthermore, the .5'56x45mm-NATO cartridge has a strong tendence to tumbling, and that's what gives the lethality to most cartridges. What has killed the .5'56mm tumbling effect was when the M-885, or SS-109, Armor Piercer cartridge was launched, the one with tungsten-core penetrator to bust through bodyarmour. The first negative reports about .5'56mm lethality date back as for Somalia, but mind that those Somali fighters were simply too thin from denutrition to have their body able to cause a tumbing effect to ANY bullet when hit.
The .5'56x45mm-NATO can be held in service wtill for a long time, using other types of bullet or load to enhance its lethality (a good choice would be the THV ammunitions, originally conceived and marketed by SFM of France, now being made and marketed by IGF-Munizioni of Italy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
And i would like to have a "instant seller" assault rifle made in beretta.
So many countries have not their national produced rifle, but they buy foreign model, as the success of aug, g36, and other gun demonstrate.
We need an italian military rifle of that class, to sell worldwide!
The 70/90 need only a multirail system to be "on the top" with the other super seller rifle?

I see you don't understand.
Most of countries that "buy foreign models" make that "foreign model" on their own by acquiring license to manufacture (Australia for the AUG, Spain, Mexico and Greece for the G-36, Chile for the SIG, Indonesia for the FNC, etc.). The very few Countries that decide to rely COMPLETELY on foreign-made products have Armed Forces composed of such little number of persons that allows them to keep the costs relatively low; or, they buy weapons that are already on the market in such high quantities to keep costs relatively to zero (M-16 and AK-47 mainly).

As for having a "Beretta rifle instant-seller", I repeat: it can appeal the Law Enforcement market, but that's NOT the case. The AR-70/90 is NOT an all-purposes weapon, it's a very reliable, very easy to use, very solid weapon for MILITARY use, but that's very POOR on versatility. The AUG, the SG-550, the G-36, instead are highly versatile. The 70/90 rifles were made with only the Italian Armed Forces in mind. And besides, even should we now make a rifle of such category, we'd arrive too late. The market is already up with the HK-G36. To make such a "new" weapon commercially viable, we should make it less expensive than the G-36. Which is unfeasible. BERETTA has high quality standards. High quality standards cost a lot. If BERETTA wants to make a rifle less expensive than the G-36, they'd have to bring quality standards down; which, hopefully, they won't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
Beretta love civilian, hunting, sporting, police markets, being imbaraced when selling "war" weapons.
This is the matter. It's italian hypocrisy, i fear...

Humm... NO. The BERETTA 70/90 weapons system -IS- offered for export for Military and LE by BERETTA DEFENCE. It is not selling, because it is a lowly versatile weapon system, good for "standard" Armed Forces, but only for them. And even then, who would pick them up? In Europe and almost worldwide, militaries and police have their national-made guns. American police forces won't pick up Beretta rifles: they have shitloads of M-16s.

Beretta has relied for too much time on the high sales of the M92 pistols series and PM-12/S/S2 submachineguns abroad. And them were and still -ARE- top sellers. They came interested in foreign sales of assault rifles (IF they ever actually did) only up to VERY recently. You want my opinion? I think that BERETTA has poor or no interest at all in selling assault rifles worldwide. The market is already gluttoned with enormous assloads of old and cheap designs (M-16, AK-47 and its derivatives) which are confronting with new designs of relatively low cost (Norinco, to name some), and to new, highly-advanced weapons that aim to the "top customers" (AUG, HK-G36, etc.). Even should now BERETTA launch something on the market aiming to such customers, it'd be largely too late to catch any "good" contract. Sure, unless they make something SO good, SO simple, SO cheap, overall something SO GREAT, that' it'd be Sci-Fi for a manufacturer like BERETTA that, yes, is the oldest and much probably the best worldwide, but which has a problem: it is highly conservative and very little prone to innovation in designs, at least up until recently ("new wave" of pistol and carbine models, starting with the M-9000 pistol, the 90-TWO, and the entire "Storm" firearms series). BERETTA has rested on the laurels of its M92 series pistols, PM-12 series submachineguns, and 70/90 series rifles being sold in enormous quantities to the Italian state (becoming basically a monopolist in Italian service, with only a handful of foreign SMGs and rifles/carbines used only by Special Forces), to some foreign police agencies, and above all on their stratospheric civilian business. Now, the market has changed and they are seeing the writing on the wall. They need to go further, to improve, redesign, ADVANCE, if they want to keep the pace with the rest of the industry, which has done this all in the past 10 years, while Beretta was pressing the snooze button every time that the alarm ringed. Now they are on a serious condition of backwardness. Let's hope they'd finally catch up, otherwise...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
In the gun field, americans hates who is better than them, instead triyng to learn from him,sometime...

Oh, YEAH...
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  #19  
Old 09-21-2006
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@ PT: I don't know if beretta will produce an AR version of the RX4 or a Rx version of the AR, but they could be two good product, according to you!
I prefer a plastic, modular frame 70/90 ( as the Ar 160 prototype ), so our poor country could buy a good number in a few years...
Thank you for the "argo" links and explanation!^^
Untill socom and nato will not have a better answer to their last "enhanced lethality 5,56/7,62mm ammo" requests, we still need longer barrel, according to the furious complaints from the soldiers about the 5,56 nato.
You like F2000, a APC/helicopter transport-friendly gun, but a very few soldier like bullpup, i feel.
They are noisy, really, and bulky, with worse mag-change and istinctive fire capability... their use in CQB, according to GOI operators, is very difficult... all the SF use not bullpup rifle ( except austrian and so on), and regular forces follow them, you know...
I agree with you for all your concepts about 5,56mm ammo.
The new "loffelspitz" ( mp7 docet) ball seem to be good...
About the selling capability of beretta rifle, you say:"I see you don't understand."
Thank you! But I say you do not persuade me, resign yourself
beretta-Fn group is a giant, they can give production license to all the countries in the world, it's not a problem ( Lots of g36 or aug are everywhere in the free world, and not under license, but with local factory of the original firm, i believe).
you say "To make such a "new" weapon commercially viable, we should make it less expensive than the G-36".
High quality standards cost a lot, and Hk have very high standards, so beretta can follow them in the quality/cost level.
If they will use a 70/90 based new rifle, i hope that industrial costs will be slow and the price tag the same.
The BERETTA 70/90 weapons system are obviously offered for export for Military and LE, but without any real efforts!
Beretta shooting academy is a good idea to sell pistols to police and civilians, for istance, but beretta do not spend a minute to sell military guns.
They have the Fn minimi production license, and do not try to sell it to allied-friend countries!
And all the world wants minimi!
You say: "BERETTA has rested on the laurels of its M92 series pistols, PM-12 series submachineguns, and 70/90 series rifles being sold in enormous quantities to the Italian state (becoming basically a monopolist in Italian service, with only a handful of foreign SMGs and rifles/carbines used only by Special Forces), to some foreign police agencies, and above all on their stratospheric civilian business. Now, the market has changed and they are seeing the writing on the wall. They need to go further, to improve, redesign, ADVANCE, if they want to keep the pace with the rest of the industry, which has done this all in the past 10 years."
You are right, absoluteluy, absolutely!!!!
They have the top ingegneers and technicians, but the marketing is dead in beretta, they are lucky that M9 sell by itself ...
The new -X4 series is perfect, i hope the new AR will be the same...
Again, thank you for reading my poor english...
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  #20  
Old 09-21-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
Oh, YEAH...

Here starts the typical European bitch-and-moan-about-those-damned-Americans circle-jerk.

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