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  #21  
Old 09-21-2006
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I don't get this "americans hate guns that are foreign" crap. I can state the difference very clearly.

Many "European" companies, on the large scale end, make better products than comparable "US" companies. (Beretta, HK, Sig, etc VS Colt, etc) NOTE: the specificity of nationality of many of these companies has gotten very vague lately.

On the other hand, for innovative, unique, and special application weapons from a dynamic small business firearms sector? No other nation comes close to the US. That's partly size, partly economy, partly liberal firearms laws, and partly culture of entrepreneurship. Think XCR, Medusa, .50 Beowulf, .499 LSW, .458 SOCOM, 6.5 Grendel, Serbu Super Shorty, Masterkeys, Kel-Tec P11, Barret M82, and on and on more innovative firearms ideas actually get put into production in the US than anywhere else. And as for quality, if you want quality superior to mass produced it's very easy to find around here.

So in summary, our big firearms companies suck, but our small companies have some of the best stuff money can buy.
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  #22  
Old 09-21-2006
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I agree with you!
Your new business capability is fantastic!
also in the small arms sector.
but I think that just a very few products of the little dinamic business US firms can be considered good or almost good.
But nothing has the total quality of european guns.
From pistols to heavy machine gun, or not?
Americans have incredible armed forces, able to knock down also the europeans armies, in some conditions!
You have huge firepower and organization, by far better air forces and navy, optimal mechanized unit... but any good guns. IMHO.
We europeans will exchange very willingly!
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  #23  
Old 09-21-2006
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Default Just some points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
@ PT: I don't know if beretta will produce an AR version of the RX4 or a Rx version of the AR, but they could be two good product, according to you!
I prefer a plastic, modular frame 70/90 ( as the Ar 160 prototype ), so our poor country could buy a good number in a few years...

I still think that a 70/90-RX4 "crossover" is a very good way to start. Take a look at the AR-160 prototypes: XM8 plagiarism. And (unluckily, because I liked it) the XM8 is dead, or on the good way to be.
BERETTA already has to sound designs: the 70/90 with its extreme reliability and ease of use, and the RX4-STORM which is modern and accessories-friendly, with all that rails etc., just the way the nowadays' soldiers like it, or seem to. Merging the 70/90 and the RX4-STORM would be a great stepforward for BERETTA. They would to it in a snap of fingers. After all, they would use all-proprietary technologies, things that they already have, and they would need to develop nothing new (well, something for quick-change barrels, but that's very few), nor to borrow technology or ideas from others. The main "pro" of a 70/90-RX4 crossover design would be that it would be available more quickly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
Untill socom and nato will not have a better answer to their last "enhanced lethality 5,56/7,62mm ammo" requests, we still need longer barrel, according to the furious complaints from the soldiers about the 5,56 nato.

AAH! You know what is the biggest complaint that the Italian soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq are posing? That they want SUBMACHINEGUNS issued! Yes, they want those tiny BERETTA PM12-S2 submachineguns! And do you know why? Because THEY KNOW that this will make them loose firepower, but the fact is that they found a standard assault rifles to be simply TOO LONG AND BULKY in the current combat situations. They not only "want", they -NEED- a shorter weapon, something along the lines of an M4 carbine, to say. The full-size standard assault rifle is not good in the combat environment of Afghan, Iraqi or (probably, in the near future) Lebanese cities. Too much encumbrance. Sure, BERETTA already makes two short 70/90 series subcarbines (the SCS-70/90 and SCP-70/90, the latter one having a muzzle-mounted removable rifle grenade launching attachment). But them have been adopted by the Italian Armed Forces in VERY little quantities (the main Italian Armed corps to have been issued with great numbers of the SCS and the SCP is the CARABINIERI, "Gendarmerie" or Military Police, and for ITALIAN homeland police duties, it's not issued to overseas-deployed personnel).

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
You like F2000, a APC/helicopter transport-friendly gun, but a very few soldier like bullpup, i feel.
They are noisy, really, and bulky, with worse mag-change and istinctive fire capability... their use in CQB, according to GOI operators, is very difficult... all the SF use not bullpup rifle ( except austrian and so on), and regular forces follow them, you know...

The FN F2000 has several improvements about the issues you pose. First of all, it's less noisy than previous other bull-pup designs (the most noisy bull-pup I know to be in existence is not the FN F2000 at all, it's the FA-MAS). AND, the use of the NATO standard PASGT ("Fritz") helmet makes the user hear the recoil even less.
The FN F2000 -IS- in use with Special Forces: in Belgium, Slovenia and Peru. Belgium and Slovenia have also (Belgium since the very beginning, Slovenia recently) selected the FN F2000 as their -STANDARD- assault rifle, to replace all the existing rifles in service (for Belgium, FN FNC for standard troops, FN FAL for the reserve; for Slovenia, Yugoslavian-made AK clones) within 5 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
I agree with you for all your concepts about 5,56mm ammo.
The new "loffelspitz" ( mp7 docet) ball seem to be good...

A "new bullet" is not exactly what we need.
If we want to employ a "new bullet", then the best would be the THV. Its shape has superior aerodynamics, and it can travels up to 1,5 times faster than a standard bullet of the same caliber, thus acquiring superior kinetic energy (its name, "THV", stands for "Tres-Haute Vitesse" in French, "Very High Velocity" in Italian); it is un-deformable, and when it hits the target, it delivers ALL its kinetic energy on it AT ONCE. You have to use a microscope to look at the poor jerk's internal organs, afterwards.
But what we need is something with enhanced stopping power. Something along the lines of a full-metal, hollow-point bullet, or a frangible ammunition like the ones used for hunting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
About the selling capability of beretta rifle, you say:"I see you don't understand."
Thank you! But I say you do not persuade me, resign yourself
beretta-Fn group is a giant, they can give production license to all the countries in the world, it's not a problem ( Lots of g36 or aug are everywhere in the free world, and not under license, but with local factory of the original firm, i believe).

Open your eyes please. If somebody out there other than Italian Forces would have actually wanted BERETTA rifles, they would have ordered them already. There are SHITFULS of newest designs to prefer to the BERETTA 70/90; such designs have the benefits of the TECHNOLOGIC INNOVATION which BERETTA has culpably neglected in the past years, as I said, sleeping on the laurels of the enormous worldwide M92, PM-12, and civilian products sales. If you look, even now, the innovations inside BERETTA don't come exactly from BERETTA. They have founded the BERETTA HOLDING, acquiring BENELLI, FRANCHI, SAKO of Finland for long-range/sniping rifles, BURRIS in the USA for optics, and STOEGER, still in the USA, to license-manufacture cheap-ass versions of the BENELLI shotguns for the market of the Americas (mainly of SOUTH America).

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
you say "To make such a "new" weapon commercially viable, we should make it less expensive than the G-36".
High quality standards cost a lot, and Hk have very high standards, so beretta can follow them in the quality/cost level.
If they will use a 70/90 based new rifle, i hope that industrial costs will be slow and the price tag the same.

I repeat: there are a lot of other products, like the enormous amounts of the M-16 and AK-47, on the market for those who need a simple and cheap assault rifle. There are readily available on the market by the MILLIONS. Those who instead need an "advanced" assault rifle, today, can rely on products which are more ADVANCED than the BERETTA ones. And that's BERETTA'S fault. Obviously BERETTA -can- do what you say; but they would have to move their ass and spend money and effort on technological innovations, if we want to see an "Italian G-36" hitting the markets (and THAT would be a real hit, but it's not possible today, seen the technological drawback of BERETTA today).

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
The BERETTA 70/90 weapons system are obviously offered for export for Military and LE, but without any real efforts!
Beretta shooting academy is a good idea to sell pistols to police and civilians, for istance, but beretta do not spend a minute to sell military guns.

Because they have no interest to (again, sleeping on the laurels of the great worldwide sales of other products). Because the Italian law (quote rightly!) imposes stringent controls in exports of small arms and light weapons made in Italy and destinated to foreign Armed Forces. And, today, because the BERETTA slept so much on their laurels that now their technology is too outdated to produce an assault rifle able to catch up the market of those that want an assault rifle on the standards expected from BERETTA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
They have the Fn minimi production license, and do not try to sell it to allied-friend countries!
And all the world wants minimi!

They CAN'T. FN has given to BERETTA the manufacturing license for the MINIMI only and solely for the purpose of equipping the Italian Armed Forces ("internal use only"). Making FN MINIMI for the commercial sales would be an infringement of the agreement between FN and BERETTA.
And besides, mind: FN holds a strong hold on the MINIMI. They gave manufacturing license to many Countries, always and only for INTERNAL use. For commercial sales, they aren't giving license. If "commercial" customers want the MINIMI, they will have to ask it to FN still for a VERY long time.
And BTW, I think that BERETTA should develop a SAW/LMG on its own.

As for COYOTE:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCoyote
I don't get this "americans hate guns that are foreign" crap. I can state the difference very clearly.

Many "European" companies, on the large scale end, make better products than comparable "US" companies. (Beretta, HK, Sig, etc VS Colt, etc) NOTE: the specificity of nationality of many of these companies has gotten very vague lately.

On the other hand, for innovative, unique, and special application weapons from a dynamic small business firearms sector? No other nation comes close to the US. That's partly size, partly economy, partly liberal firearms laws, and partly culture of entrepreneurship. Think XCR, Medusa, .50 Beowulf, .499 LSW, .458 SOCOM, 6.5 Grendel, Serbu Super Shorty, Masterkeys, Kel-Tec P11, Barret M82, and on and on more innovative firearms ideas actually get put into production in the US than anywhere else. And as for quality, if you want quality superior to mass produced it's very easy to find around here.

So in summary, our big firearms companies suck, but our small companies have some of the best stuff money can buy.

There is a lot of difference. It's a matter of different gun markets. Most of the thing you state above ("XCR, Medusa, .50 Beowulf, .499 LSW, .458 SOCOM, 6.5 Grendel, Serbu Super Shorty, Masterkeys, Kel-Tec P11, Barret M82, and on") don't appeal, don't interest, or can not be commercially viable to, the gun markets outside the US. If we'd want something similar, we would have already done it by ourselves:
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  #24  
Old 09-22-2006
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@ PT:
Infact I said just that modern wars still NEED longer barrel rifle!
All we Know soldiers want compact guns, from the napoleonic war.
the Socom and the Nato search a new bullet for their standard calibers, and the US ARMY, in a recent study, said 5,56mm nato is "adeguate" only with long barrels and at short- mid distance, with multiple hits.
Not so good, I think.
As the soldier in war, according to all the information sources.
in the fact, all complaint about 5,56mm.
If us army felts the need to explain that 5,56mm is adeguate... it's a sign that this caliber is suffering stopping power.
Excusatio non petita, accusatio manifesta!
Sure, all the soldiers are always looking for the perfect bullet, low recoil, as the 5,56mm, but .338 performance, at least!^^
"The FN F2000 -IS- in use with Special Forces: in Belgium, Slovenia and Peru."
WoW!!! Slovenia and Perý!!! And belgium is the FN's own country...
I still prefer standard rifle, HK416 and SCAR!
We 'll see all together which model will be successful with SF and troops...
Now a question!
I know that the THV bullet for handguns are not diffused, only some french custumers use them, or not?
They promise very well in short range situation, but do you think this design could be good in the assault rifle?
Don't you fear a rapid trajectory drop??
More, the THV is build with high cost materials, i fear it's not a suitable idea for armies...
Nato is going towards "scanalated" ( sorry, I don't know the inglish term....) points. Easier and cheaper.
I think standard, not anti-men-only bullets are better, tomorrow we don't know if we will must fight against kevlar-equipped soldiers...
Sure,the Italian law imposes stringent controls in exports of small arms, and beretta rifles ar not up to date...it's a fact!
I wonder why beretta didn't upgrade an SCP with multirail, new grip, M4 style stock.
Italian army need those now, not some expansive M4s.
Giordania bought 600+ SCP for their desert scouts SF, after our SF ( they've got their joint training in that country) showed these guns always function and fire in the desert, also in a full sand storm, while colts are closed in the bag!
Our SF did the marketing effort, instead of the beretta managers...
License production: I know that FN has given to BERETTA the manufacturing license for the MINIMI only and solely for "internal use only".
As for all other countryes.
But beretta is not just another country.
They are melted in FN group, they can achive a different contract, if beretta only want!
The same FN sell worldwide the PM12 when a foreign customer ask for it, just because, as you said, italian gov. stops almost any export!
And when you say " I think that BERETTA should develop a SAW/LMG on its own.!"
You're right!!^^ They have the know how ( after the minimi license).
But in the world beretta has a lot to work to obtain the "military industry" status, as HK or FN.
they have to work on their brand perception, I feel, and after last 30 years working in the opposite direction, it will be hard.
Our "italian G36" could be the first step!^^


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  #25  
Old 09-22-2006
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Default STEALTH, I agree with most things you say...

Just, don't bitch and moan about the FN F-2000. I forgot to mention that, other than Belgium, Slovenia and Peru, it is in service with the National Police of East Timor... and with A LOT, and I mean A LOT, of Local, State and Federal Law-Enforcement SWAT teams in the U.S. of fuckin' A., and in some numbers in Canada and Mexico. The US-DHS (Department of Homeland Security) has allegedly acquired a number of F-2000 rifles, along with another bull-pup, the Singaporean SAR-21 distributed in the US by VT-SYSTEMS Inc.

As for your other point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
I wonder why beretta didn't upgrade an SCP with multirail, new grip, M4 style stock.
Italian army need those now, not some expansive M4s.

That's the max that BERETTA has been able to do:



You'll understand it still is NOT enough; but the main cause is that the 70/90 System was designed with VERY POOR versatility in mind (and that's NOT strange, back when it was spawned, there was not the need to attach such an enormous number of bells and whistles to a standard infantry rifle; and, again, the 70/90 is just a STANDARD INFANTRY RIFLE and a police rifle, not a multi-purpose weapon). We need a new concept, and we need it NOW.
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  #26  
Old 09-22-2006
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Sorry, what the hell is this "don't bitch and moan" exactly?? (PT, in italian it's..?)^^
I understand the sense, but my Collins' dictionary has not it.
However I wanted to say that bullpups are by far less selling gun versus the standard rifle.
AUG is an excellent gun, so I would like it bullpup, standard, or in any other configuration!
Famas, sa80 are rubbish, in use with the poor soldier of their nation ( as the italian soldier with the magazine-loosing 70/90 in somalia).
East and far east army and industry must give a rifle to minute soldier, who can have a hard time with standard engumbrance rifle.
F2000 is young, we'll see how many main forces will adopt it, instead of traditional rifle.

70/90 was designed from the Italian army high command, beretta knew very well that italian army would have been its only costumer.
So their engigneers did everything the army asked them:
An obsolete, not versatile, heavy, gun.
When I was in the navy, someone in the Military commission that approved the 70/90 told me that they wanted the charging handle on the right side, (even if the free hand to recharge is the left, for most soldiers) because during the parade (!!) it would not harm the cadet.
We colud find even other reasons to not have the charging handle on the left, but this is the most ridicolous!
I understand why beretta now has an old, unfriendly rifle...
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  #27  
Old 09-22-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
Sorry, what the hell is this "don't bitch and moan" exactly?? (PT, in italian it's..?)^^
I understand the sense, but my Collins' dictionary has not it.

"Bitch and Moan" is a typically American expression. The meaning is pretty much like "Lamentarsi fino a rompere i coglioni".

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
However I wanted to say that bullpups are by far less selling gun versus the standard rifle.
AUG is an excellent gun, so I would like it bullpup, standard, or in any other configuration!

You said it. The Steyr AUG is a top seller, but it was getting obsolete too, so that STEYR came out with the AUG-A3, which is going to be another best-seller and will be made in Austria and in three more plants worldwide, including Malaysia and the USA. What STEYR did to the AUG to make it to the AUG-A3 is somewhat what BERETTA should do with the 70/90 to make it become the assault rifle that we need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
Famas, sa80 are rubbish, in use with the poor soldier of their nation ( as the italian soldier with the magazine-loosing 70/90 in somalia).

Hehe... the magazine loosing problems of the 70/90 have been longtime fixed, now the problems are others...

About the FA-MAS, it has basically one problem: it is loud, basically the LOUDER bull-pup rifle currently existing. Otherwise, the newest models (basically the G1) has fixed many of the troubles encountered with the F1 model. The FA-MAS actually -IS- a good gun, if it wasn't, again, to be the loudest bull-pup ever.

About the SA-80, well, its being "good" or "crap" is questionable. It has been plagued with many reliability issues, so several and severe that the British Ministry of Defense had to rely on a foreign manufacturer, HECKLER&KOCH of Germany (which, by the time the SA-80 first entered service, was actually owned by BRITISH AEROSPACE - ROYAL ORDNANCE), to improve it to the SA-80/A2; which, in the words of some British soldiers, has got rid of many, if not all, of the defects. But also which, again in the words of some British soldiers, has NOT got rid of many problems at all.
However, some British soldiers (one of them is even an "habitué" of this forum) says that the reliability problems of the SA-80, even of the first type models, is not due to failures in engineering or construction but to bad maintenance from troops. Well, it's eventual: soldiers on the battlefield are not highly trained, or sometimes simply don't have the time, to keep their guns in mint new good conditions. A weapon must be "rude", resistant to sand, dust, mud, rust, water, etc.; or at least, it must have, like many new models, its internal parts "enclosed" in a plastic polymer frame acting like a "shell" to "seal" the inside of the gun as much as possible against those external factors.
Furthermore, the SA-80 was, and still IS, the most accurate assault rifle worldwide. Yes, the MOST ACCURATE. Even more than, to say, the M-16 or the G-36. Its bull-pup configuration (which ensures good accuracy and range thanks to a standard-lenght barrel mounted on a compact-size weapon) and its SUSAT scope, excellent in low-light condition combat, forced the British MOD to re-design completely their marksman tests after the adoption of the weapon. Still today, the SA-80 is said to be extremely accurate, surpassing any other design available.
By the way, what the British soldiers would want as a SA-80 replacement is most probably the HK-G36. Obviously, such a G-36 for the British MOD should be made in the UK, on Royal Ordnance plants (which should be re-opened for the purpose). My ideas about a "British G-36" would include it to have the SA-80 flash-hider/muzzle brake (to fit the same SA-80 bayonet), to have a folding/telescopic stock (like in the G36-KV), to take STANAG magazines, and to have a SUSAT optic mounted on the carrying handle.
The SA-80 and the G-36 have a similarity: them are both based on the ArmaLite AR-18 working system. The AR-18 was designed to be the "AK rifle of the Western world", as for reliability and ease to manufacture; it had poor or no commercial success at all, but as the time went by, its working system was used as a basis for the G-36 and for many other rifles (the American BUSHMASTER M17-S, the Japanese HOWA Type 89, and for Australian military trial prototypes such as the LEADER DYNAMICS T2-Mk5 series and the ARMTECH/EDENPINE C30R, ART-30 and SAK-30).
The SA-80's problems come from the fact that the reverse-engineering of the AR-18 working system to make it bull-pup was made so badly that it basically was made not work any longer. Too bad, since the British ALREADY HAD the capabilities to make the AR-18 (the famous firm of STERLING ARMAMENTS had made some AR-18 rifles and carbines since a very few years before the conception of the SA-80; they could have simply asked STERLING to modernize the exteriors of the AR-18 and have it made to become the new British assault rifle. But NO, the British government bought out STERLING and shut it down, probably in a much wider plan to close the biggest UK-based civilian-gun makers in anticipation of the gun ban to come, 'cause, as you should know, today, owning a gun in the UK is nearly impossible). Other AR-18 derivatives, especially the Bull-pups (Australian ARM-TECH C30R and American BUSHMASTER M17-S) had reliability issues, but them were not related to the AR-18 system revertion to bull-pup, contrarily, in those two rifles it was done well. Only, the BUSHMASTER M17-S tends to go very hot after some rounds are fired (because of its highly temperature-sensitive aluminium construction), while the ARM-TECH C30R, which fired caseless ammunitions, suffered an out-of-battery ignition during its first military trial, and was discarded. The other Australian bull-pup prototypes (Edenpine ART-30 and SAK-30) were good but not commercially viable any longer, so that the factoru gave its rights away to BUSHMASTER (ART-30 and SAK-30 are actually the "ancestors" of the M-17S), while paradoxally the OTHER Australian AR18-based prototype which turned out to be somehow low in quality was the LEADER T2-Mk5... which was NOT a bull-pup, but a standard-design rifle, an AR-18 knock-off mixed up with features of other rifles such as the M-16 and the HECKLER&KOCH G3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
East and far east army and industry must give a rifle to minute soldier, who can have a hard time with standard engumbrance rifle.

Then, explain me why NORINCO made the TYPE 81 Kalashnikov derivative, which is considerably longer than a standard AK; and also why they made something like the TYPE 68 automatic rifle, again a too-long SKS with full-auto capabilities and taking AK magazines.
On the other hand, the new NORINCO bull-pup (QBZ-95 and QBZ-97) seem just fine. Probably that's the way to go through to have low-cost bull-pups. But, hey, how do you expect China to sell its guns abroad if almost all Countries worldwide have put an embargo on Import/Export of Chinese-made military weaponries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
F2000 is young, we'll see how many main forces will adopt it, instead of traditional rifle.

A lot, I think. We'll wait and see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
70/90 was designed from the Italian army high command, beretta knew very well that italian army would have been its only costumer.

YOU SAID IT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
So their engigneers did everything the army asked them:
An obsolete, not versatile, heavy, gun.

Well, "obsolete", not completely. NOT VERSATILE and HEAVY, well, you are competely RIGHT. Remember that there were three different candidates to the adoption as standard .5'56mm rifle for the Italian Armed Forces: the Israeli GALIL, manufactured by BERNARDELLI as the VB-SR; the German HECKLER&KOCH G-41, which in case of adoption would have been manufactured in Italy by FRANCHI; and the SOCIMI AR-831, which was basically an M16-looking weapon with an AK-47 gas system for reliability, and a very high resistance to harsh environments. And THAT'S what we should have went for. Okay, today we would must probably be replacing it; but what's the problem? We would have had for about 20 years a much more light and resistant weapon. The 70/90 had reliability problems in its first years, but now it is very reliable; probably the SOCIMI would have avoided such reliability issues since the very beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth
When I was in the navy, someone in the Military commission that approved the 70/90 told me that they wanted the charging handle on the right side, (even if the free hand to recharge is the left, for most soldiers) because during the parade (!!) it would not harm the cadet.
We colud find even other reasons to not have the charging handle on the left, but this is the most ridicolous!
I understand why beretta now has an old, unfriendly rifle...

You ask me? All caused by the typically Italian BUREAUCRACY RULE.
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  #28  
Old 09-22-2006
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Thanks for the translation!^^
When i saw the aug A3 the first time, I said just: beretta should wake up and upgrade its old SCP!
I wonder the sa80 is so accurate!
I think the 90% accuracy in a gun is in its barrel, and I wonder british RO produces better barrel than sig, beretta and HK!!!!
In the "all italian way-15 years long competition" for our "new "rifle, I think the beretta system was by far the best:
galil is far less versatile ( multirail, ...), g41 has a fine but delicate mechanics ( the dalayed action is abandoned by HK itself), and Socimi... finished with the tangentopolis scandal, being a society of the Craxi clan!
Today, an AS70/90, with only a rapid change barrel, would be perfect for IAR competition with USMC! Beretta was prophetical about automatic rifle a lot years ago!
I always dream a sopmod SCP...
What about these??^^


the first one, larger...
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  #29  
Old 09-23-2006
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Default Hehe, STEALTH...

There is NO difference between THIS...



...and THIS:



Both are standard SCP-70/90 carbines with top handle removed, and a Picatinny rail mounted at its place. The optic installed can be of any marketed model. The fact that those carbines mount a M203-SHORT grenade launcher by KAC doesn't changes the fact that them are the same model. Those grenade launchers have an universal mount, and can be installed to any rifle (even to the 70/90 system, which is notoriously "allergic" to most optionals).
It's not a Picatinny rail and an underslung launcher that will make a SOPMOD weapon out of the SCP...
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  #30  
Old 09-23-2006
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Roger Roger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT-The Italian Commie
...
Furthermore, the SA-80 was, and still IS, the most accurate assault rifle worldwide. Yes, the MOST ACCURATE...
...
Designed by target shooters, the SA-80 A1 was the second most accurate assault rifle on the planet (the most accurate is the Sig 552) and the A2 design is supposedly more accurate still. Its bullpup design1 makes it possible to have a longer barrel and a shorter overall weapon length, making it both more accurate and a lot less unwieldy...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A653735
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