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  #11  
Old 10-09-2006
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80 to 81, but China's throwing a heck of a lot more tonnage in the water than Japan.
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  #12  
Old 10-10-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk23
China:

Destroyers: 26
Frigates: 45
Submarines: 9


Japan:

Destroyers: 49
Frigates: 10
Submarines: 22

...
Add Huws and his CUWS secretly adopted by the Chinese Navy. OK I leave...
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  #13  
Old 10-10-2006
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Default Ok...

No doubt, China's numerical superiority is meaningful.

However, one must not only consider the strengths of China's potential opponents, but also the historical failure of Communist doctrine. There's hasn't been a successful communist country, much less a successful military campaign waged by one since the Soviets allied with the West.

What I mean to say is this- I would wager that Chinese military doctrine is subject to the same deficiencies of thought as other areas of chinese communist rule.
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  #14  
Old 10-10-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
There's hasn't been a successful communist country, much less a successful military campaign waged by one since the Soviets allied with the West.


This isn't held up terribly well. The Russo Finish War is the example. Sure, Russia lost 5 men for every Finnish casualty, but they did technically win that war. And Chinese military doctrine makes the death tolls of Russian doctrine look minimal.

And unfortunately, given Chinese culture, I have a feeling communism plus china isn't necessarily going to make people as inherently upset about this arrangement as they would be in most other nations.

I'm frightened at the prospect of how a nation that thinks it has too many people would go to war. Remember, Chinese family policy has led to a cultural surplus of males on the order of 100 million. They could lose 100 million soldiers and on a certain sociological level "not feel it". They have no problem doing horrible things to their own people, much less enemies, and have no problem piling up bodies to reach objectives.

But anyway, I seriously doubt China is willing to join a war to support North Korea. The PRC is totalitarian, and even militant; but they aren't totalitarian, militant, AND fucking insane all at the same time like Kim Jon Il. It seems much more likely that China is waiting for North Korea to fuck up the wrong way for the world to let them take over.

And honestly, as far as I'm concerned, China can do it. North Korea is bad enough a PRC takeover would actually be an improvement. And it's not like it would give China anything strategically special that's worth mentioning.
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  #15  
Old 10-10-2006
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Default My list doesn't go into quality of course

And I have to bet Japanese ships are a lot better equipped.

If you look at all the indigenous PRC ships, like the Luhu, or Jianghu... you won't find two ships that even look alike in the same class. There's no uniform armament, and that's not just with block differences like in the US Navy. It REALLY looks like they just dropped whatever turret was handy at the shipyard at the time into the hull.

And recently they're just buying the ships that Russia can't maintain financially anymore, which means they're likely in a poor state of overall maintenance when they're handed over.
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  #16  
Old 10-10-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk23
And I have to bet Japanese ships are a lot better equipped.

If you look at all the indigenous PRC ships, like the Luhu, or Jianghu... you won't find two ships that even look alike in the same class. There's no uniform armament, and that's not just with block differences like in the US Navy. It REALLY looks like they just dropped whatever turret was handy at the shipyard at the time into the hull.

And recently they're just buying the ships that Russia can't maintain financially anymore, which means they're likely in a poor state of overall maintenance when they're handed over.

This probably matters a whole lot less than the quality of China's sensors and anti-ship missiles... and quantity of said missiles. Those are pretty certainly standard across the whole fleet and matter a lot more. Not to mention quality and strength of air support. Turrets are only going to come into play when the ships are supporting ground forces these days.

China's balance of forces are larger frigates. And while destroyers are "agile", they are still lumbering beasts against missiles. And a frigate can survive more hits with them than a destroyer.

But the air forces are likely the more important comparison. Given the relatively short distances involved in the area for ground based fighters, odds are the ships would barely get to engage each other before one side or the other's airplanes finished everything.
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  #17  
Old 10-10-2006
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Default I've been saying this for a while...

Let China have N Korea! I would honestly sleep better at night.
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  #18  
Old 10-10-2006
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I'm skeptical that Chinese soldiers are as motivated as their government would have us believe. Chinese Han nationalism only goes so far as a motivator when you're 18 and unwilling to even be there.
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  #19  
Old 10-10-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Guy
I'm skeptical that Chinese soldiers are as motivated as their government would have us believe. Chinese Han nationalism only goes so far as a motivator when you're 18 and unwilling to even be there.

Russian soldiers were incredibly poorly motivated in invading Finland. Ultimately it didn't make a difference to the Finnish who lost.
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  #20  
Old 10-11-2006
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Angry Not to my surprise...

...you Americans have immediately started to wave your anti-Communist flag hoping in military interventions against DPRK instead than getting my point.

And my point was not NORTH KOREA; my point was JAPAN. You think it's "cool" that Japan has all that military power? (Which it in fact has NOT, actually). Well, my answer is NO.

The major problem with Japan is that a certain political part, which casually is the same one that governs the Country with the American "placet" since the end of World War 2, lives in some die-hard nostalgia of their militaristic, colonial, ultra-nationalistic past; that very same past whose ideologies led Japan to World War 2, with all the annexed cruelties against civilians and POWs, all the soldiers dead on all sides, and ultimately the nuclear bombing in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
My point was that, with the new Japanese PM Shinzo Abe stating that "Japan has not and has NEVER HAD war criminals", thus openly DENYING what the History has already assessed above all doubts, the North-Korean nuclear test would have freaked the shit out of the Japanese Liberal-Democratic Party on power, enough to push that damn Country to give up their revisionistic/negationistic positions, admit publicly and once for all the Japanese war crimes of WW-2, and openly apologize (all things that Japan has up to date always REFUSED to do).
The Japanese nationalism is much MUCH more dangerous for the stability of eastern Asia than Lil' Kim Jong-Il playing with nukes on the other side of the sea, and it is right BECAUSE there's Kim Jong-Il playing with nukes. North-Korea is surely one of the Countries that had more to argue about Japan for the WW-2 war crimes; and an official Japanese governmental position of negation and historical revisionism about the problem is nothing more, nothing less than what North Korea is waiting for to have an excuse to settle the score once for all. With a nuclear blast over Tokyo. Which, I repeat, would at least be a free-of-charge refreshment of History 101 for the Japs.

And besides, is that just the Italian TV broadcasting? Okay, then, that's what they say: appearently, some US Intelligence sources state that there might have been NO North-Korean nuclear test AT ALL. They state, the US Intelligence reports that the seismic shockwave, allegedly due to the underground test, was simply too weak to have been caused by a nuclear explosion of the power declared by North-Koreans. It might all have been a hoax by DPRK, detonating some thousands of tons of conventional explosives underground to simulate a nuclear test, so to try higher on the negotiations table. Which I don't think is going to go anywhere, now, having a South-Korean (not exactly the most impartial position on Earth, currently) having been elected as UN Secretary-General...
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Last edited by PT-The Italian Commie : 10-11-2006 at 04:20 AM.
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